FGM prosecutions

Oh FFS penstemonn! It s 'one thing if a parent takes a child to a doctor for a medical reason. Quite another to have mass examining of little girls at school for no reason. Surely you can see that.

jingl how do you think a GP /paediatrician checks if a boys balls have dropped if a parent is worried? What if a girl has an infection? Doctors have to touch patients. Sadly I suspect it would not need much 'invasive' procedure to see that a girl had been mutilated.

I am not promoting genital checking I am just saying that perhaps if there had not been the loss of the school medical service it would be easier to set up a system for monitoring.

Years ago I used to take my class of 6 yr olds to a local paddling pool on Clapham Common. They all splashed about in the nude happy and innocent. Would not happen now and I think that is a sad reflection of our society.

It seems from the link that MiceElf posted that in France, anyone associated with mutilation of girls can be prosecuted - ie, the mothers and grandmothers who procure the procedure.The threat of imprisonment and financial penalties is proving a deterrent there.
I'm not sure that is the case in UK.
While any doctor who participates in mutilation is culpable and should be struck off, I think making the family liable is a much better preventive measure.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26681364

Here it is. It seems we are barking up the wrong tree. There have been more than 140 referrals to the police in the past four years but these are the first prosecutions. It seems that before we start examining girls we need to educate the police and CPS about their responsibilities to implement the law.

I think there would be a major outcry in this country if the authorities announced they were going to examine all girls in the country for this reason. Not the least from the children themselves.
And you could not pick and choose which children were examined.
Anyway folks it ain't going to happen. The days when a school doctor came round and checked over all children are decades past. The vast majority of schools do not choose to employ a school nurse. And there is no free floating school nursing service that goes round checking for nits any more.
I think the young women in Bristol who petitioned Gove have the right idea - educate girls about this practice (and their brothers too). If they are aware of the dangers they are more likely to disclose their worries that it might happen to them or to a family member or friend. Or resist if their parents tell them it is a good idea.
The leadership for this has to come from women who have been affected, or who are members of communities in which it happens. It is heartening to see this beginning to happen both in Africa and in our own country when bright young women find the confidence to speak out.

From the nofgmoz article - "In France, children are examined up until the age of 6 years." Yet I have read elsewhere that FGM can be carried out at any age from around 4 onwards, although usually before 10.

As someone else said earlier in this thread, any parent determined to inflict this practice on their daughter would just wait until after she was 6.

Let's not be emotive and bring "Nazism" into it. I think we all agree that physical examination has its own difficulties and ethical issues, however, if we are talking about the lesser of 2 evils, unless someone comes up with a better idea - what is to be done?
And as for imposng "Western values" on another culture, that is a debatable area. We, I think, agree that we find some practices barbaric and a breach of human rights. To what extent one can go into another country and impose one's own values - even with the best intentions - is open to discussion. But as a starting point I would maintain that people living in this country are subject to our laws - does that make me sound like UKIP supporter? I hope not, because where laws exist to protect the vulnerable , it should not be possible to exempt certain sections of the population.
(And don't get me started on Muslims selling/not selling alcohol at supermarket check outs, forced marriage or Sharia law!)

"examination is necessary to claim welfare benefits."

That is horrific! Would not be well received in this country.

penstemonn It would be practically invasive! The child would have to be touched there. Just so wrong in so many ways.

Thanks jane I'll read that as well now.

www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/current/graduate/llm-society/docs/Final%20submission%20to%20the%20Home%20Affairs%20Committee%20-%20FGM%20Inquiry.pdf

This explains the French system, as well as suggesting a way forward in the UK. It seems children are examined regularly up to the age of six, and examination is necessary to claim welfare benefits. One of the worries is that parents will simply postpone the procedure until after the age of six. I believe children are also examined before they leave the country and on their return.

I also read in another link (which I can't find now) that the problem in the UK is not so much the difficulty of identifying victims or potential victims, but the apparent reluctance of the CPS to bring prosecutions. I will see if I can find where I read that.

nofgmoz.com/2014/02/25/no-fgm-australia-interview-with-linda-weil-curiel-french-prosecutor-the-legal-and-child-protection-response-to-prevention-of-fgm/

I think this is the link, MiceElf

Surely that's babies Lillygran. At the six week check-up.

I am really pleased to see that at last cases are being brought against those who seek/carry out FGM. Hopefully it will help to prevent girls from undergoing this dreadful practice.

Do you think if we had still got the old school medicals in place it would be easier to examine children routinely and it not thought an 'intrusion of privacy'?

Has society created an over-sensitivity to legitimate medical examinations because euphamisms such as 'private parts' are used & children no longer strip off (e.g.on beaches) to change but hide coyly in towels and tents etc etc
Having been to a boarding school where we all stripped off and wandered about starkers we accepted bodies naturally came in different shapes and sizes! Nowadays that is less common and so children are more self- conscious. I can't decide if that is a good or bad thing!

To look for undescended testicles, I believe jingl.

What about when a parent refuses permission for the child to be examined in this way. Some undoubtedly would. Would it be made compulsory?

Next step nazism?

Neither of my grandsons have had their genitals examined . Why would that be done?

The hydrocele that my younger grandson had, was found by his mum.

I can't get it to work MiceElf please can someone blue it?

The link you gave comes up as "Sorry, the website nofgoz.com cannot be found" on my computer, MiceElf.

We must have some idea of the extent of female mutilation in this country as it must be apparent when the woman gives birth? Or has a smear test [although they probably aren't allowed to have smear tests [?]].

If you read the link I posted above Nightowl, it answers some, if not all, of the points you raise.

Agree absolutely.

Absolutely, nightowl.

Nellie great minds....(or something of the kind)

I would love to know more about the French system. What worries me (amongst other things) is when and how often these examinations would need to be done. The thought of it being done once, at puberty is bad enough, but the thought of it being done annually I find very difficult to accept, and surely it would need to be done more than once or FGM would simply be postponed until the people responsible knew the child had already been examined. The other thing that worries me is what would happen if a child simply refused to be examined (as happens in cases where sexual abuse is suspected - and might be likely with a girl who had been subject to FGM). It is unthinkable to me that a child would be forced to undergo
an examination against their will. The practicalities of it are too horrific to contemplate.

Does anyone know what the consequences would be for women living in societies where 'cutting' is considered to be desirable, even essential, not to have undergone the procedure?

I believe the French examine all children routinely anyway, it identifies other possible problems as well. Little boys have their genitals examined in this country and I think, as I said, if it were a usual practice with girls, it wouldn't be a big deal. And I think it is intended, not to find girls who have been mutilated but to prevent them being mutilated.