Scotland YES or NO

I knew I shouldn't have become involved in this discussion.
I have taken risks durhamjen and I have lived in various parts of the world, some not very peaceful.
However, I have never tried to take a country with me.
This is what I am worried about, discussions getting personal, and not just on Gransnet.

Of course Alec Salmond says that. He is being truthful. Nobody knows and for the government to pretend otherwise is silly.
But do you never do anything different because you do not know the outcome, and are scared of it, Grandmanorm?
If that was the case I would have stayed in Hull all my life because that was where I was born.

I think there's something just a little ironic in the YES camp wanting to rid themselves of the Westminster government, when Scottish politicians have dominated it for so long.
In particular, the post-war Labour victories wouldn't have happened without the presence of Scottish Labour MPs.

Oops, walking not asking!!!

Even Alec Salmond has had to admit we will be asking into some unknown territory. That is what scares me. No-one knows what will happen, there are absolutely NO guarantees about anything promised.

I am not "assuming" anything mcem It makes no difference to me whatsoever what anyone votes in this election.

Perhaps I should have made it more clear that my response was directed to Granny23 and in particular the second paragraph of her last post. This is nothing at all like voting in a particular political party it is very much a walk into the unknown. Lets hope the "not for glory,nor riches,nor honours" still stands if/when there is an independant Scotland and Alex Salmond becomes the "man at the top".

'....people can can say all sorts of things, make all sorts of promises to get into the position they want and then ....who knows'
That's precisely the position we all found ourselves in after the last general election isn't it? So absolutely no guarantees that we'd get what we think we're voting for no matter where or when.
By the way, there is an assumption that I'll vote yes when I have not declared myself as pro or con. All I'm doing is asking for balanced information, reasoned listening and intelligent questioning on both sides of the border.

What puzzles me is How do you know what an independant Scottish government will be like Granny23 and mcem as you can only judge by promises and pledges. Power can be a dangerous thing and people can say all sorts of things, make all sort of promises to get into the position they want and then.........who knows.

Also with every major decision like this there has to be pros and cons. It is a fact of life. I cannot understand how the "YES" camp seem to think there will be no "cons" and that everything will be sunshine and roses.

Yes all decisions should be based on intelligent informed discussion but so much in life is based on gut instinct, whether it's having an operation, buying a car or deciding how to vote. On an intellectual level I can understand and appreciate both sides of the 'truth' about the statistics and arguments. On a gut level I feel that the people of Scotland, who want to vote Yes, are actually voting to divorce from us English without us having a say in the matter.

Brendawymms I am so sorry you you felt like that. I am sure you know that all Scots are not like that.
mcem I think that a lot of this devolution move is emotional. For some it is independence from Westminster (that is my abbreviated version) but others it is purely emotional.
Like divorce (a word often used in this debate) it is going to be horrible before it gets better, if it ever does.
These are my views and mine alone. I stand by them.

This nationalism is pro-Scottish not anti-English. It is not an infantile slamming of the door and taunts about 'not speaking to you'. Given Gove et al , as above, wouldn't you choose to consider alternative ways? Many Scots are thinking that being tied to Westminster and all that implies, is just too high a price to pay if we don't have to be. Therefore intelligent, informed adult discussion is absolutely necessary.

Einstein was pretty bright, wasn't he...?

I think of nationalism as cancerous rather than infantile, but he had a point with his choice of words.

I wish that people in England could also have a vote about being divorced from/by Scotland.
During the time I lived in Scotland, with Irish husband, was made to feel that we should push off "back to your own country".

Still no and I still agree with Einstein who said that nationalism is an infantile disease.

Thanks mcem. If I wasn't so happy living in the nw of england, I'd be moving to Scotland. I'd love to distance myself and my community from the excesses of Hunt/Gove and co.

Although it's been far less articulate or passionate than granny23's post, I have tried to make the point on several occasions that a route that offers an alternative to corruption in Westminster, Gove's education lunacy and nhs privatisation is a route that deserves careful consideration. Add in the Scottish government policies on higher education and care for the elderly and the whole discussion just has to be taken seriously. I accept that people will have different opinions but would just ask that these are informed opinions and not rooted in cynicism, negative propaganda or stereotypes.

I am totally serious Gillybob. Of course I would make sure that family (and a couple of friends) were well provided for first and like the Weirs I would make substantial donations to the carefully selected charities that I usually support, but then I would donate as much as I could afford to either the SNP or the YES campaign - whichever needed it most. Why would I change the habits of a lifetime? I have been raising money for and making direct donations to the SNP my entire adult life.

I understand why, from your perspective, you would be horrified at the idea of throwing money at the corrupt, self serving, 'all in it for themselves and their cronies' type of 'politicians' who represent the big UK parties. I would not give them the time of day. But I am part of a democratic movement (of which the SNP is the political wing) which seeks Self Determination for my country, the right to choose our own government whose priority is the welfare and well being of ALL the people who live in Scotland, not just the rich, the elite or the educated, nor only 'hardworking families' or workers who are in Unions, nor indeed only those who have been born and bred here. I am very proud that we have reached the point where our nation can make that choice and that the campaign has been undertaken democratically and peacefully, via the ballot box and funded, not by big business, foreign interests or anyone else who seeks to manipulate the result for their own gain but rather mainly by ordinary people who want what they believe is best for their country's and their children's future.

When the choice is between being ruled by big business, the rich and powerful, being dragged into illegal wars, having dangerous, unwanted, disgustingly expensive WMD on our soil so that UK leaders can posture on the world stage, while our NHS is being sold off to the highest bidder, elderly folk are being hounded out of their homes and food banks are a necessity in this rich country - and a Scottish Government which seeks to rid us of WMD, is, through financial prudence, making all possible efforts to protect the Scottish NHS and keep it free at the point of use, and has abolished tuition fees so that tertiary education is available to all our brightest and much more.

Consider this - up until about 10 years ago being a member of the SNP was political suicide for all but a very few. Not a single one of the current SNP administration joined the party or stood for election believing it was a route to the top in politics. They all made the commitment through a desire to strive for the betterment of Scotland and all the people who live therein and had to suffer personal attacks, defeats, set-backs, ridicule, loss of day-jobs in many instances. Not for glory, nor riches, nor honours....

Oh please tell me you are joking Granny23 of all the deserving causes in the world you would seriously consider donating a large part of a lottery win to the SNP, or any political party for that matter?

What can I say? I have found myself speechless.

Yes Gillybob you have got it in one - the chance of Independence is reward enough. It has been SNP policy since forever to neither nominate for nor accept Knighthoods, OBEs etc. There are no SNP members in the House of Lords. I was SO jealous when the Weirs won the Euro lottery and subsequently donated millions to the SNP and to the YES campaign, as that had been my dream - win the lottery, first call the DDs and then call party HQ.

The YES campaign is only required (by the Electoral Commission) to list direct donations but there are hundreds of self financing grassroots, local groups and affiliated organisations such as 'Labour for Independence', The Green Party, SSP, Football supporters, Oilworkers, Shepherds for Independence; Trade Unionists, Seniors, Scots Asians, Christians, Farming for YES and YES LGBT - too many to mention - who raise their own funds in the time honoured way, with coffee mornings, car treasure hunts, selling badges etc. Our local group has rented an empty shop as a 'Hub' until the end of September. The rental will be partly paid from fundraised income (we had a plant sale on Saturday and have a stall at a gala in 2 weeks) but mainly by supporters donating small amounts each. Only around 50% of our county wide YES group are SNP members or supporters the rest have a range of political affiliations or none. Many are CND members.

The MSM always pretends that the whole campaign is run and masterminded by Alex Salmond, with perhaps a little help from Nichola. This is far from the truth but I have yet to see a report of any of the YES stalls, which have been running every Saturday, rain, hail or shine in town centres throughout Scotland or the numerous well attended Public Meetings and huge rallies. I have no idea why this grassroots movement gets little or no publicity. Maybe because there is no equivalent on the NO side????

I wonder what (favours) those people on the list expect to get in return for their very generous donations? Or are they just so passionate about "the cause" that just the "YES" result will be enough for them?

Granny23 Thank you for taking the time to post that information.

Newist Hope this helps.

Yes Scotland today publishes details of donations to the campaign, including contributions from those who have given more than £7,500, since April 1 last year.

More than 11,000 donors have each given up to £7,500, totalling £473,000, underlining the strength of grassroots support.

A further £2,678,000 has been given in larger donations from seven individual supporters.

All donations have been made directly to the campaign which has been self-financing since September 2012.

The period covered by today’s announcement is from April 1, 2013 to today.

The donations are:

Chris Weir - £1,250,000
Colin Weir - £1,250,000
Randall Foggie - £60,000
Dan McDonald - £50,000
Mark Shaw - £50,000
Norman Easton - £10,000
Mary McCabe - £8,000

Sub Total - £2,678,000
Total £3,151,000

Yes Scotland Chief Executive Blair Jenkins said: ‘We greatly appreciate and are hugely encouraged by the thousands of people across Scotland who have made donations – both large and small – according to their financial means.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/10632305/Scottish-independence-Yes-campaign-readies-million-pound-marketing-blitz.html This is a lot of money to be spending on Bill Board advertising
I wonder where all the money is coming from?

Is that right, Thatbags? What does legal tender mean?
The government is running scare stories about Scotland not having any currency, and not being able to use the pound. I did not think the Bank of England had the right to use the pound to the exclusion of all other countries or banks.
Oh, and RBS will move from Scotland to London. How ridiculous is that!

Hilarious exchange between Billy Bragg and Peter Hitchens on Newsnight -Billy Bragg claiming that if Scotland gained independence it could force 'reform' in the EU...