EU Vote

Oh, so Londoners are 'too well-educated' to vote for UKIP, are they? What a load of cobblers...

Wonder what kind of immigrant Ed Milliband is apart from Russian Jewish. Or Portillo apart from Spanish. Or Michael Howard Romanian/Welsh Jewish
Anyone speculated about the possibility that we could in the next five years have these to chaps leading the tories and the labour party:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuka_Umunna

Both would appear to have the ability.

and before you ask Sajid (Pakistani) and Chuka (half Nigerian half grandson of high court white UK judge)

Reading all the anti- UKIP talk on here, do I take it that you would all, since you welcome all immigrants from where ever with open arms, vote for us staying in the EU? If - and it's a very big if - any of the parties dared to have a referendum?

Absolutely I would vote to stay in. I consider myself a European (UK born, live in France, son with family in Spain). We have had seventy years of peace, we have the freedom to live and work in Europe, we have laws which protect us. I think some elements need reform, especially things like the CAP, but I see far more benefits than disadvantages.
I don't think you reform an institution by electing people who are fundamentally opposed to its existence and who make a pretty poor show of turning up, while they cynically take the pay and expenses. (Have a look at UKIP's voting record.)

Yes, I would vote to stay in European Union. We need MEPs who are committed, hardworking and have the ability to manage the undoubted changes that are needed.

As for the quote above Ana, it was from the mouth of a UKIP councillor. I rest my case

Yes, I would want to stay in the EU - we just need some sensible changes so that more power is held here, as it was the Common Market we voted to stay in (well I didn't - I was busy in the delivery room, having my first child that day).

MiceSelf's quote: Labour's heartlands are the inner city areas. Always have been. Its vote came, for the most part from the poor, the dispossessed and those without much power. And, for the most part, still does. That's why it's strong among those who live in the inner city and those who have come to this country one, two or three generations ago. Most 'immigrants' are British or EU citizens. As are those who were born here and now live any one of the other European countries.

My friend's view: He thinks the intellectual left, unfortunately, are out of touch with how the ordinary people of Britain live on a daily basis as they pontificate from their ivory towers (not just the politicians) - as are the other two parties.

I said that my immigrant friends would probably not vote Labour. I also said that they are hardworking and aspirational, the sort of people that one reads about being welcome here. I was just questioning whether one should assume that most people who came to this country would vote Labour as stated in MiceSelf's post. To then claim that I said that anyone who votes Labour is not hardworking and aspirational is a ludicrous presumption and I take exception to that.

Other people should be welcome here because they need help and refuge, as did my ancestors.

Red tape, bullying over court cases, the example that POGS gave of the Irish having to keep voting until they gave the RIGHT answer (ie the one the EU wanted!), liberally spending taxpayers' money and never signing off the accounts, need I go on?

^Anyone speculated about the possibility that we could in the next five years have these to chaps leading the tories and the labour party:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuka_Umunna

Both would appear to have the ability.^

And the arrogance

Our whole family is made up of immigrants one way or another. And all aspirational and hard-working. OH and his sibblings could not be better examples of this. Both OH and I would definitely vote to be in Europe- the consequences of pulling out would be incredibly bad for the UK I believe. As said above, we must fight to reform the European Union's excesses- that is quite sure, but pulling out no.

BTW I've never voted Labour- due to the First Past the Post system it would have been a total waste. The system has its advantages, but it is the least democratic system possible in a 'democracy'- with a vast number of votes going straight into the bin- and a PM being able to be elected with very few votes proportionally. In the UK, if you happen to live in a constiutency which does not represent your views- it is not even worth bothering to vote at all. I always did, as a principle- knowing full well it would go to waste. Apart from in local elections- where my vote usually counted.

Many people live in families and social groups which belong to one political group, one religion, one social class, one nationality- I am really grateful that our extended family and social group stretches from the left to the right, with the full spectrum in between, same for social 'class', religion (or none), nationality, race, etc- as it certainly makes you think and re-think all the time, which can't be a bad thing.

Well, I think we should stay in the EU, but I do hope that these results will give them all a good shake-up and start them thinking that many people are sick of the gravy train, the unaccountability of how they spend our money and the sheer ridiculousness of some of the rules and regulations meted out on a regular basis. A lot of perfectly good food must have been wasted over the years until some of the regulations regarding size, shape etc were scrapped not so long ago.

Another example of riding roughshod over ordinary people was forcing metrication on traders:
^Sunderland grocer Steve Thoburn inspired the "metric martyr" movement with his defiance of the order to abandon the imperial measurements.
In 2001, he was convicted for having weighing scales which had only imperial measurements.^

mamie, I feel very sorry for you with your new MEP . I can only imagine how you must be feeling - I'm depressed enough having heard that there is a UKIP MEP in Scotland now. I really thought that, judging by recent by-election results, we would manage to avoid that.

It would be nice to have a bit of reform in the EU - sell off one of the 2 parliament buildings for a start - but I would have preferred to do it without the nastier right-wing parties (including the policy-lite zone which is UKIP) getting involved. Like you, annodomini, I have grave fears for the environment now.

And yes, if I am asked to vote in an in/out referendum, I will vote IN.

Well, so does our family and social group, Granjura, although not stretching to the extremes politically.

The straight banana story was a MYTH. Just look at the oddly shaped fruit and vegetables on a French market stall and ask yourself which country makes more fuss about things like that.

Oh dear Rosequartz, you're shifting ground now.

You said 'I would doubt that my immigrant friends would ever vote Labour. They are the sort of immigrants that people say are welcome, hardworking and aspirational'.

In a later post you changed 'immigrants' to 'anyone'.

That first post was why so many on here took exception to your view. The implication was very clear. If you didn't mean what you said, you should retract.

I'm quite unclear about what you mean by 'the intellectual left'. Please clarify.

Is that what it is all about - things so important as metrification- goodness gracious me -doh.

It's like driving on the left or right- both are fine, as long as we all agree. You just can't mix the two though. It was in 1971 for goodness sake- it is not brain surgery, really. 1 kg is just under 2 imperial pounds -minus one bite of an apple- it does not take 43 years to get to grips with that. Sorry but really ??? Downtrodden- because of metrification?

How on earth do you import and export when systems are mixed- it just does not work.

Let's go back to selling carpets priced on Square yard, in 2, 3, or 4 metre widths and by the linear foot- fabulous (not). Rant over.

Salutes. Yes ma'am.

Miliband, Toynbee, some teachers and lecturers, oh where do I go from here, I would be typing all night.

Many on here of course?
(But not the Labour voters who are struggling because, as is evident from their posts when they try to explain what life is really like in some areas, they are bullied off never to be seen again)..

Please do not twist what I say and disregard what you have said and make assumptions.

I'm twisting nothing. Reread your own posts.

And, oh dear, you've clearly had a little peep at profiles. But you still have not explained what you mean by the intellectual left. I await the explanation with bated breath.

As for your final paragraph, please state your sources and evidence. Assertion, supposition and surmise are not persuasive.

It's a triumphant day for divide and rule isn't it. Whose fault is it that people are struggling to make ends meet. Not the greedy people who work in finance and who got this country into terrible debt as a direct result of that greed. Oh no. Its the immigrants and the EU for being wasteful.

Profiles? I am not researching back through threads to find evidence but I am sure I am not the only one to remember people being beleaguered and feeling they were being bullied on GN.

I am sure there is a definition of the intellectual left somewhere, with some examples. And I am sure you know already, so it would be a waste of my valuable time researching and typing and your valuable time reading it.

I'm sure you know what rosequartz meant by 'the intellectual left' MiceElf. Here's an article which sums it up for me, although of course it's from 2009 and only refers to 'the intellectual class'.

WARNING! Contains references to...Margaret Thatcher

x posts, rosequartz!

I am sure there are many GN's who have parents/grand parents/great grand parents who have immigrants to the UK in their family tree, I DO. So what!!! It doesn't make me think I am special, it doesn't make me think I different. It's a part of my history nothing more, nothing less.

I don't go around thinking about it that much to be honest. I am who I am, I live where I live and I most certainly do not feel at all threatened by UKIP or anybody who mentions the word immigrant or debates immigration. Having said that I do not feel threatened by UKIP but I do fear some far right parties as mentioned many times before.

Why would I. I do not have a circle of friends, family ex workmates etc. who if and when the subject of immigration crops up can't speak openly in my company for fear I would call them racist or told they are being offensive, because they are not, merely stating the bleeding obvious usually.

Take the names that have been mentioned so far, Miliband, Portillo, Howard, Umuna,Sajid David. Are they racist or offensive when they talk about immigration? They all have! Of course not, it is intelligent to discuss immigration as much as it is intelligent to discuss welfare, taxation, education etc. etc.

The debate to be had on immigration is whether or not we should control the numbers, what effect does it have on our services, schools and housing etc.etc. It is not about the make up of the immigrant population over decades past, it bears little relevance to today's issues. The debate has moved forward to what the immigrant make up should be to ensure the populous of the UK, whether they be from immigrant background or native, can cope with today, tomorrow and in the future surely.

Now there will be the usual comment made, 'If it wasn't for immigrants our hospitals would suffer'. I agree but I also understand that if there wasn't so high an influx of people we wouldn't need so many nurses. That's just being practical.

Actually, granjura, 1 kg. is 2.2 lb. You've been away from us too long!