EU Vote

If it was the early 1800's and the UK was the richest and most powerful country on earth again we could dictate to the rest of the world as we did. But we are not, and wistful nostalgia will not make it otherwise. The world has changed and the UK is just one of a number of European counties with problems. We either try to sort them out by mutual consent or we don't, in which case we will be squashed by the powerful international forces of the US, Russia, China and Asia.

Well here are a few, POGS.
Free trade without tariffs in the largest single market in the world. Investment in British industry because it is part of the EU. Exports to EU partners. Legislation which protects workers. The right to live and work anywhere in the EU. (I believe about two million British currently do this). Working together on climate change. Education programmes like Erasmus. Grants and investment in regions of economic deprivation in the UK.
Yes, reform is needed in some areas, yes, some of the internal bureaucracy needs streamlining. Are UKIP really going to turn up and take part in that?
As for the intellectual left - I understand that some people are trying to say that to arrive at an understanding of socialism by an intellectual process is not the same as an understanding forged through a life of poverty. Clement Attlee is not the same as Alan Johnson. I get that. What I don't get is how that somehow means that those who arrive at socialism through thought, reading and observation are, by definition, naive, deluded and "living in an ivory tower".
Do people of the right understand everything about everyone through instinct alone?

Good points papaoscar and maime. It is clear that the EU has led the way on issues like equality in the workplace and the environment whereas UK governments, left to their own devices, would have dragged their feet. And continue to do so wherever possible.
I would add that the free movement of labour benefits the UK a great deal.
It was fascinating to watch what happened in the boom and bust in Ireland - the boom could not have happened without an influx of workers from eastern europe. My BIL had for a while, a busy architecture practice with about 10 employees. All of them were from Eastern Europe. He could not possibly have found Irish staff and it takes many years to train more architects. When there was a crash they all went home again. Or maybe to London where construction appears to be booming at the moment...
But of course while they were in Ireland they were all paying tax...
And the majority of this flexible labour force does not bring dependents along. They tend to be net contributors to the economy.

I just wish we'd stayed with the common market we voted for in the first place (similar to that which Norway seems to enjoy).

I've always felt that France, Holland, Germany, etc are our neighbours but not immediate family. To live alongside, visit and be friends with - but not actually live together. The more recently joined countries are, so to speak, more like acquaintances but now they're living with us.
I don't feel comfortable with being part of such a large commune, but don't see how things can now be reformed sufficiently without causing enormous upset. It's a bit of a worry.

Given that the UK imports much more from the EU than it exports, it seems a bit one-sided on the whole import/export angle. The Isle of Man is not part of the EU but we trade with them (and many other countries outside the EU) and we have no natural resources at all!

People have always been able to move to other countries to live - it just means that you have to apply to live there.

If the UK Government wasn't paying (according to this article https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887 ) £33 million per day, maybe the UK government could afford to finance grants and investments in the UK themselves. I find it hard to believe that being in the EU is worth that amount of money.

Whilst I would agree that without the EU, it is unlikely that the minimum wage would have been brought in and also workplace regulations may not be as stringent, the arguments I have read so far seem to indicate that it is more about being able to go and live or study in another EU country; if I have understood that correctly, why should everyone in the UK pay for others to have that privilege?

No Hollydaze, it is actually much more about working in another country. My OH spent years working in other European countries implementing complex computer systems and training others. Some of those contracts were for world-wide multi-nationals, but many others were entirely European and would probably not have happened without the EU. Lots and lots of money earned for his UK company and lots of tax paid.
There are hundreds of thousands of UK citizens working in Europe, some on contract and some settled semi-permanently. It is our largest market for export. Membership of the EU is hugely important for British business.

Matthew Wright's obnoxious, hectoring side came to the fore again today on the opening discussion of whether UKIP should form an alliance with the Tories. I think he is past his sell by date, his inability to remain impartial gets on my nerves and his tendency to shout down anyone he doesn't agree with on the phone in section is getting worse. Channel 5 should get rid of him and offer the job to Richard Maddley who does a far better job in fronting the programme, on some of the occasions he has been away.

As for the intellectual left - I understand that some people are trying to say that to arrive at an understanding of socialism by an intellectual process is not the same as an understanding forged through a life of poverty. Clement Attlee is not the same as Alan Johnson. I get that. What I don't get is how that somehow means that those who arrive at socialism through thought, reading and observation are, by definition, naive, deluded and "living in an ivory tower"

That would be my definition, apart from the naive and deluded which I never mentioned at all. However, if that is how a 'left wing intellectual' would see themselves then so be it.
Living in an ivory tower would seem to me to be someone who has never had the struggle of desperately looking for work, paying the bills, worrying how to provide for their family as my father did after WW2. It would seem to me to define someone who has had a well-heeled life of privilege and good (possibly privileged) education but has arrived at socialism through thought processes.

I may be wrong and I am sure I will be corrected if so.

This government wants to get rid of any form of human rights we have in this country. If we were not part of the EU, they would have done so by now.

TerriBull.

We will have to be careful as some will think I have two GN usernames. See my post on The Wright Stuff on the T.V Forum.

Indeed rosequartz, the naive and deluded was by inference from your post, rather than your exact words. Wouldn't your definition put most of the current cabinet in an ivory tower (or a gilded one)?
I think most people struggle one way or another, don't they? I grew up in a family where money was very tight (though we never went hungry), but that wasn't what turned me from my family's Conservative values towards socialism.
Does it matter how we arrive at our values and beliefs? Is Clement Attlee less of a socialist that Alan Johnson? I don't think the latter would think so.

It's interesting that discussion on the EU often turns into a Left/Right debate when a number of prominent 'Old Labour' left-wingers e.g. Tony Benn & Bob Crowe were anti EU.

What concerns me is there is so much that I dont know about politics and the EU, stuff that's reported on I can look up, I can even dig a bit deeper to find answers, Really I don't know where to start because every thing important that affects our lives seems to be discussed behind closed doors. So my big problem is I do not know what questions to ask, if I knew the questions I could maybe find the answers

I feel sorry for the people who voted for Labour in my opinion you must be deluded, no vote on Europe, if they won the general election what then years of running this country into the ground, Ed Balls as chancellor (what a joke).

Indeed Riverwalk and large numbers of the Conservative's moderate wing are pro-Europe. It does tend to be something more associated with the middle-ground, don't you think?
I am also surprised that there are not more of us on here with family living and working in the EU. My son has lived and worked in Spain for over twenty years, I have two half-Spanish grandchildren growing up in Spain. Lots of my friends and acquaintances are in a similar position. Surely, this is very common, these days? Would it be remotely possible to turn back the clock?

Mamie

I do understand what you are saying and you have raised some good points but I would question whether or not they are actually EU dependent. My husband and I ran our own business and had European clients as well as clients from all over the world - but we didn't need to part of the EU to look after them.

My husband and I had a house in Spain and lived there for part of each year and met some people who had moved there to work - they didn't find it very easy and there is an anti-'foreigner' attitude also (unless you are just holidaying).

Is the EU the largest export market because you are in the EU? Who did the UK trade with before the EU? I can't help but feel that the whole EU support is about those who benefit the most from having unfettered access to it and I can't see how that benefits the average UK citizen; certainly not to the tune of £33m per day!

There are some interesting statistics here about European trade, Hollydaze.
ymlp.com/zOiYwr
It certainly feels much easier to move around in the EU to me, pretty much no borders in Schengen, no duty on personal goods, no visas etc. My OH certainly found it a lot easier than working in the States, Australia or the Middle East.
I don't think my son has ever experienced any problems like that in Spain btw, but he is not in a tourist area and he is pretty overwhelmed with work.

Thank you Mamie - they are interesting figures but wouldn't they become somewhat diluted when you consider the number of countries that belong to the EU?

We weren't in a touristy area either, it was in a Spanish village but they were very friendly towards us but then again, we were not seeking employment so maybe that had something to do with it. It was in the larger areas that these people we were talking to had tried to run their businesses (cafes, restaurants, clothing shops, supermarkets, etc); I suppose it depends on which type of business you are running and if it is seen as being in direct competition with the local workforce.

Something I have always wondered about and possibly someone on this thread would know the answer. I accept there are many British people who work in Europe, I imagine many would be high fliers and have a degree of expertise in the fields they are employed in.

However, how many unskilled or even skilled tradespeople people have managed to secure a job in Europe, working in say coffee bars and shops, or as painter/decorators. Before the crash, I gather there would have been a number working in France, Germany and Spain. Is that still the case? I doubt whether there would be any in Spain given their high rates of youth unemployment. I don't perceive many of our youth, or indeed out of work, desperately seeking employment, feeling that they could roll up to any part of the EU and manage to secure a job there with little or no specific skills, even if they were equipped with a working knowledge of the appropriate language of their destination. Nick Clegg often cites this as one of the many opportunities open to us as being part of the EU, but in reality I don't think it's quite as reciprocal a picture as he paints.

When politicians mention the high number of British people living in Europe, they often omit to say that they are retired and have purchased their own properties, more commonly in Spain and France and although they may receive reciprocal health care, although I gather of late this has not been without problems in Spain, they will nevertheless be putting money into both those economies through their living expenses. Quite possibly putting in more than they are taking out. My neighbours have a house in France and spend half the year there and I know this is how they say it is for them.

It is difficult in France. It is very important here to have the training and qualifications for the job; five years for a waiter or a shop assistant, for example. Your metier is your metier and you tend to stick to it. This makes the job market very static for everyone. Running a small business is very hard, because the bureaucracy is much more complicated than in the UK and social contributions are incredibly high. There are many immigrants working below the radar, but it is not as easy to get into recognised work as in the UK. This is about national employment law and practices, rather than EU law though. There are still a few British builders, satellite installers etc here, but far fewer than there were a few years ago.

TerriBull

Coming from tolerant Britain, the one thing that surprised me in Spain was the placing of signs outside local schools and GP surgeries that stated: 'if your child (or you) cannot speak Spanish, you must bring along an interpreter at your own expense' (the interpreter would have to remain with the child at school until they learned basic Spanish). This isn't such a big problem in the big cities but it did surprise me as I've never heard of that being said anywhere in Britain.

In some restaurants/shops, if you don't make an attempt to speak Spanish, they can be a bit, erm, unhelpful!

When the local councils replaced road signs with a different way of spelling (Javea instead of Xabia, Jalon instead of Xalon), the locals were painting out the new signs and spray painting the old spellings back in. I also saw spray painting on walls stating 'English go home'. It isn't always a bed of roses but, saying that, many of the Spanish were very friendly and helpful.

You would think that not being in competition for work would be an advantage but they blame us (oddly enough, not the Germans who were there first in large numbers till their Government made it financially disadvantageous for them to have holiday homes or live in semi-retirement in other EU countries) for their lack of housing and rising house prices - also the loss of some beautiful headland to building (which I sypathised with).

It would seem the feelings in the UK regarding Europe are mirrored by many in those very countries.

There are a number of reasons why so many EU skilled and unskilled workers come to the UK:

- They speak English, often fluently
- Own country poor compared to UK so even low-paid jobs are attractive
- They have a goal e.g. build a house at home and eventually return
- Relatively generous benefits .... and so on.

As they are entitled to come, who can blame them?

But there can be no doubt that UK citizens lower down the income scale do suffer as a result, and it's this fact that the political elite don't get.

The well-off politicians and big business owners can hire cleaners for less than they were paying 10 years ago and they can be assured of plenty of waiting staff at restaurants and bars. It's not their children who can't find a place in the local school and they don't need to languish in the social housing queue.

^
But there can be no doubt that UK citizens lower down the income scale do suffer as a result, and it's this fact that the political elite don't get.^

The well-off politicians and big business owners can hire cleaners for less than they were paying 10 years ago and they can be assured of plenty of waiting staff at restaurants and bars. It's not their children who can't find a place in the local school and they don't need to languish in the social housing queue.

Well said Riverwalk. I don't think it's just the political elite - this is something that people tend to overlook or simply fail to understand as they are no longer in that position; I'm sure if they were, they would think very differently.

Interesting answer Mamie, I have heard the bureaucracy in France can be a stumbling block.

Possibly if Eurosceptics felt there was a more quid pro quo scenario as far as job opportunities for all in mainland Europe is concerned and it wasn't just a one way traffic the European dream might be more palatable.

Most of Eastern Europe will have quite a way to go before it reaches economic parity with the West and with so many Southern European countries being economic basket cases, it seems for the foreseeable future at any rate, we are to be the main host nation for the rest of the EU.

Oh I don't think that is necessarily true TerriBull. There are huge numbers of migrant workers in Germany, Holland, Luxembourg, Scandinavia etc. People go where the jobs and opportunities are.
The tight employment regulations are part of what hampers the French economy and stops it growing. There really isn't a word for entrepreneur here.
However I do think there is an issue about the British being willing to learn other languages. I suspect most of the Brits working in Europe are highly-skilled and working in anglophone companies.