Mother on death row in Sudanese jail.

I can't stand it when people put ridiculous abbreviations in posts without stopping to,think, will everyone know what I mean. Occasionally I will google the meaning but more often than not, I leave the thread.

Oh, it means Christian does it?! I thought it must be some sort of way-out sect I've never heard of!

Really Mishap and others, this is a thoroughly sterile argument which you have made many times on this forum.

Sadly, human being have killed each other, mutilated each other and enslaved each other since time immemorial.

This is a manifestation of flawed humanity and a simplistic blaming of 'religion' as a cause of this is just ridiculous.

Anyone with just the most basic knowledge of history will recall the six million Jews killed by the Nazis under the leadership of the atheist Hitler. The millions killed by the atheist Pol Pot, the slaughter of the Armenians, the genocides in Africa where the Hutu murdered the Tutsis, the terrible slaughter in Equatorial Guinea, and so on and so on. No one with an ounce of sense would blame this events on the fact that their perpetrators were atheist. They happen for a multitude of reasons bound up with the history and development of nations or tribes and are often the consequence of a struggle for resources, although not always.

Let's for once just condemn inhumanity whenever we find it, wherever it happens and whoever is the perpetrator.

I don't blame religion for everything! - I am of course fully aware that barbarities are perpetrated in the name of all sort of philosophies and of none.

I am just saying that the suggestion that it has nothing to do with this particular case is erroneous. It is the central issue in this case.

Concern about religion's role in atrocities and inhumanity is not a "sterile argument". It is a serious concern shared by people of faith and of none - and rightly so.

I beg to differ. The central issue in this case is misogyny. The hatred that so many men have towards women. They may use religion as a justification, they may use tradition as a justification, they may simply enjoy the privileges of the powerful and resist all attempts to change the status quo.

That is what needs challenging, wherever it is found, in whatever society it is found, in whatever predominant philosophy, tradition or religion it is found.

Until women and men are equal in society oppression of all kinds will continue to exist in greater or lesser degree.

for MiceElf's post, spot on

We can't be sure of that. (mysogyny) I wonder if there have ever been a case of a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman in Sudan. And changing his faith to do so.

MiceElf Wed 04-Jun-14 19:14:52
Anyone with just the most basic knowledge of history will recall the six million Jews killed by the Nazis under the leadership of the atheist Hitler.
1) At least 6 m Jews, and then; Romanies; Slavs; 2.5 m (gentile) Poles; Russians; '' .... the mentally ill, the deaf, the physically and mentally disabled ; homosexual and transsexual people; political opponents such as communists, social democrats and socialists; and religious dissidents, (e.g.) members of Jehovah's Witnesses ... a death toll of 17 million'' [WikiP]
2) 'Hitler' was a Roman Catholic.
3) The Nazi party could not have come to power had it not been for the then pope of the Western Orthodox church dissolving the German Xtian democrat party, leaving Roman Catholics free to vote Nazi.
4) At that time the Western Orthodox church held the Jewish nation guilty of Deicide - and actively promoted this verdict.

If you're happy to rely on Wiki for your sources just check the entry on Hitler's religion. He was disdainful of Christianity.

What the the point of your distorted mishmash of uninformed assertion above can possibly be I have no idea.

The issue under discusdion here is a young woman at grave risk of death as a consequence of living in a woman hating society. And all nations and peoples need to challenge this in whatever way they can.

MiceElf Wed 04-Jun-14 21:35:55
If you're happy to rely on Wiki for your sources just check the entry on Hitler's religion. He was disdainful of Christianity.
Thank you for that lead - I learned much from that entry to confirm my so called (By you) assertion(s).
1) ''This article has multiple issues.''{BIG Problems}
2) The Western Orthodox church never got round to excommunicating him, and when they did it was for suicide. [Shades of Al Capone ?]
3) ''... he did not present himself to the public as an atheist, and spoke of belief in an "almighty creator".''
4) He was disdainful of Christianity Religion? Compared with the organized and systematic mass slaughter of around 17 m ppl,..... disdain... ? ?
My Grandmothers always told me ''Happy - always bale your hay before you take it to market.''

I find it hard to know how to deal with this discussion.

Religion is at the heart of this dreadful situation - this does not mean that I am condemning religion per se, but just recognising what is in front of us.

There is always an assumption that in saying that religion has been a cause of barbarity, one is automatically also saying that no other individuals/organisations/doctrines also are a cause. It is a non sequitur. The one does not preclude the other.

The woman-hating is inherent in the religion involved - I know that it is not explicitly a part of that religion, but it is how it is interpreted in that culture and is the justification for these actions. That conclusion is distasteful to us all (of faith or none) but it is simply how it is.

The devaluing of women has also long been a part of christianity - I know that it is also not explicitly stated as a doctrine; but it is what the religion has engendered in the humans who interpret it. I find that, and all other evil interpretations, exceedingly worrying and frightening; and further I would wish to ask what it is about religious dogma that inclines it towards these dangers. No-one can bury their head in the sand on this. Religions deal in fundamentals and carry an inherent risk of fundamentalism which sadly often overtakes the peaceable aims and origins.

They also do much good in the world, but recognising that does not diminish the evil where it exists.

I believe it's acceptable for a Muslim man to marry a Jewish or Christian woman but not for a Muslim woman to marry outside Islam. But that's not the main point here. See MiceElf's posts - and my previous posts, for that matter.

If it is categorically written into Sharia law that denying your Muslim religion is punishable by death, how can that be mysogyny? It would surely apply to men as well. I realise that in this case the woman never actually was Muslim, but that's not the point.

Mishap Wed 04-Jun-14 22:22:52
The woman-hating is inherent in the religion involved - I know that it is not explicitly a part of that religion, [Islam]

The devaluing of women has also long been a part of christianity - I know that it is also not explicitly stated as a doctrine.

'' It's snowing down south. ''

You're getting the dark and light bits wrong now. It's making it even more confusing.

^ it's good it will be autumn soon, then^

''Emphasis Type the symbols in your text as below to write with these options. Your text will show the changes when you preview or post your message.''

Always read the instructions.
Check and double check.
THEN press <POST>

There are a number of posters on GN who always take the position that all religions are human constructs. Those same posters blame 'religion' for many destructive and wrong activities throughout human history. Why don't they blame human beings?

I agree with that.

I don't like being hit on the head with blackened text.

Of course it is the human beings who are perpetrating these barbarities, but they a doing it in the name of their religions.

I am just saying that it is not possible to say that this dreadful situation has nothing to do with religion as has been asserted in one post. This woman has been condemned to death for marrying a christian - how is that not about religion!?

In this case the followers of this particular religion seem to be died-in-the-wool extremists with no minds or feelings of their own. They are following the written law of their religion blindly.

In more developed countries, such as Northern Ireland, it was men advancing their own political ends under the guise of religion. Not even that really. It was just the two religious groups that divided them in the first place.

Of course it is to do with religion, as you say, Mishap. A religion may start off as a contract between an individual and their god, but it can quickly expand to become a way to impose conformity. Those individuals with a bias toward controlling behaviour codify what is expected of adherents and turn the spiritual experience into a straightjacket of "what God demands of those who follow".

Some religions resist this transformation, some realise that it is happening and try to roll back the accretions, but "the faithful" are vehement in their resistance.

It has been said that the punishment this woman faced/faces is not consistent with true Islamic teaching - but it is consistent with the current face of Islam, and that is the one that is most presented to the world.

There are a number of posters on GN who always take the position that all religions are human constructs. Those same posters blame 'religion' for many destructive and wrong activities throughout human history. Why don't they blame human beings?

Lilygran, there is a flaw in your argument there. If (as I believe) religion is a human construct, then humans are to blame.

Whatever your views and beliefs about God and religion, it is undeniable that all of any God's laws and precepts are conveyed by humans to other humans, and expressed as the people receiving them and acting on them understand.