Is it time to make state education secular?

So long as Ofsted does a thorough job in All schools, and their findings are acted upon, that's all we can ask for. But state secondary schools cannot be taken over by Muslim extremists. It's wrong and dangerous.

Not necessarily a take over by extremist but certainly the 'Islamification' of state schools in certain areas.

Surely it's divisive by the fact that they do not attend the same school even though best friends so presumably in the same catchment area, Jingle. Presumably their parents did the dividing.

But they're not divided. Going to different schools doesn't divide them, any more than living in different roads, or using different libraries, or whatever, does.

Of course they are, Jingle. They spend most of their waking hours at different schools, with different friends, a different social circle. The most important thing for primary school kids is their peer group. They have different peer groups now, The differences will become more obvious the older they get.

The problem is once you allow C of E state funded state schools, then you have to allow the other religions to do likewise. Unless of course you were prepared to say its the established church (in England) and the rest of you can forget it. At the moment Gove is encouraging all kinds of people to set up state funded "free schools" which are supposedly going to raise standards across the nation (that was the line at the last election). Some of these are being set up by faith groups including one in Bradford, run by Muslims that is having to close down this year. There is also concern that the Steiner movement is going to start running these schools. (or getting state funding for existing private ones) . Steiner is a kind of recently made up religion, based on a hotchpotch of ideas from other religions. They don't make this obvious to parents in their sales pitch (the religious bit). Tend to attract people who think vaccination is unnatural. (Steiner was anti vaccination) and can create dangerous little nuclei of unvaccinated children. The perfect place to start a measles or whooping cough outbreak.
If all schools had to be secular there would be no opportunity for fringe groups such as steiner, or religious extremists to get state funding for their schools.
The jury is still out on the islamification of schools. For many, many years there have been schools in the UK that were in predominantly Muslim areas. I remember going to one when i was doing my teacher training back in the 1970s. (all the little muslim kids singing christian hymns in assembly and not a white face in sight )
If you have a school in an area like that you should expect that you have Muslim governors. Otherwise you would have to parachute non muslims in to fill up the seats. Having lots of Muslim governors and teachers is not a good thing. Until the reports from OFSTED and others are published this week we have no idea what has been going on other than hearsay.

Surely it is more about choice? The entrance criteria of our local C of E school have as the top one living in the local area. Church attendance requirements are way down the list and children of all faiths attend. The RE syllabus includes study of all religions too. Parents can choose to have their children educated within a Christian ethos. Is this so terrible?
The current row in Birmingham is actually about secular schools. Didn't solve any problems there did they?

Other countries manage happily without this kind of choice - Australia, New Zealand etc etc and choice in the UK tends to be unevenly spread. If you live in London with good public transport you can get to lots of schools. If you live in a more rural setting you don't have any choice unless you are prepared to drive an hour each way or something like that. When politicians start preaching choice (all parties like to do this) I think they are being very London-centric

What makes people think that C of E schools are funded by the church?

Church schools are funded in the same way as all state maintained schools. Capital and revenue are devolved to the school via a number of routes.

Revenue funding for all schools is operated via LA formula devolution schemes.
Capital projects for voluntary controlled (VC) schools are managed by the relevant Local Authority.
Capital projects for voluntary aided (VA) schools are usually overseen and managed by the Diocesan Board of Education.
Devolved formula capital (DFC) is received annually by VA schools for small scale improvements. Schools can determine how to spend this money in line with their asset management plan.
Locally Controlled Voluntary Aided Programme (LCVAP) is an additional fund to support capital projects across a local area, co-ordinated by the LA.
Basic Need and Targeted Capital Funding (TCF) enables LAs to submit bids on behalf of the VA sector for funding large scale capital work (TCF), or for capital work to meet an exceptional growth in pupil numbers, usually referred to as Basic Need.

Wise words as usual JessM. While not agreeing with everything you say, I totally support your views on Free schools. By allowing every man and his dog to set up a school and supplying the funding for it, you are diverting funds from hard pressed 'proper' schools who have to abide by the rules for employing qualified teachers etc. There have already been financial scandals concerning Free schools and no doubt there will be more.
Personally I believe that the danger is extremism of all types. I would not want my grandchildren to be in a school where creationism was taught, for example.

State education is fast becoming a complete mess thanks to meddling by successive governments. Now we have many schools virtually running themselves and doing as they like with little or no regard to the national curriculum. So it is no surprise that powerful factions, including Islamic ones, will try to to muscle in and take over. Schools should be secular, run and paid for by the state for the general benefit of the pupils and society, and their aim should be that all pupils leave school equipped with at least the basic life skills especially literacy and numeracy.

Jess I live in the West Midlands and certainly some of the OFSTED reports have been leaked locally.

Jess. You really need to get over your prejudice against Steiner schools. Seems to be a bit of a bee in your bonnet. I can assure you that Steiner schools make their philosophy very clear to parents of prospective pupils, and if parents don't get it at the start they very quickly get it once their children start attending. Do you have any evidence that there have been outbreaks of diseases in Steiner schools caused by children not having immunisations?

The criteria for entry vary between church schools, Purpledaffodil. I know some C of E secondary schools that require many years of church attendance, both parents christened and confirmed, a reference from the vicar and are very strict indeed in enforcing the criteria.
I would have all schools completely secular and leave religion to the parents. Of course the curriculum should include opportunities to discuss different faiths and their origins and impact on the history of the world.

Yes Aka the BBC is now leaking too.
Nightowl it is not prejudice it is considered opinion, based on evidence. The Health Protection Agency also see them as high risk. Here is some research:

jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S353.long
The word "anthroposophic" = Steiner for anyone not familiar.

My grandchildren both go to a C of E school. Like all C of E schools in this county the only criteria required is you live in the catchment area.
It's an excellent school and the children study all faiths.
None of my family, me included follow any faith.

I beg to differ with you jendurham. They are not at all divided. They are at each other's houses very often. (In fact they are sharing chickenpox at the moment). Their mums are very close, having first met when teaching in primary school, and they go to after school activities together. And the best friend happens to be a little girl - even that doesn't divide them. So far.

There is life outside school you know. Or, at least there is round here.

Well said jings. Totally agree.

I stand by my contention that in principle faith schools should not be state funded. Parents can inculcate whichever religion they wish, but state-funded schools should be secular, teaching about religions, and also about morality, but with no religious bias.

As to Steiner schools Jess, I know about about these, as one of my DDs went to one from age 9 to 14, and another until she was 7. I absolutely agree with you about the vaccination issue - the whole sort of "hippy-drippy" element in the schools who refuse this are absolutely wrong and I made my views on this perfectly clear. Rudolph Steiner was indeed against it, but he was functioning in a historical context - there were once people who thought the earth was flat! I did not pull my punches over this. There is already a state-funded Steiner school, and interestingly, there is a bit of a dilution of this sort of hardline wackiness among those parents, as the school is obliged to accept pupils under the LA admission rules.

Rudolf Steiner was more of a philosopher than a religious leader, and I had no truck with his philosophy, but valued some aspects of the education that arose from it - the principle of not rushing children into academic work, the emphasis on getting out and about in nature, the combining of science and art, the emphasis on the value of arts and music. All of that was good.

I have to say there was no attempt to cover up the philosophies to prospective parents, but also a complete absence of any teaching of these philosophies - they informed the approach to the education but were in no way part of the children's learning in school.

The 2 of my children who went there went for specific reasons: one because she was desperately unhappy at her school and she found her niche in the Steiner school where her artistic and musical talents (and most importantly her confidence) blossomed; the other went to enjoy the fun of kindergarten with its singing, dancing, art, crafts, and nature rambles, and then went on to primary school at age 7.

I am not certain whether Steiner, Montessori or other alternative systems of education should be state-funded or not. A bit of variety might not be a bad thing to counter this current central control.

If all schools had to be secular there would be no opportunity for fringe groups such as steiner, or religious extremists to get state funding for their schools.

This is what would put an end to all this bickering. People can be free to set up their own schools as long as they pay for it themselves.

All state funded schools should be secular and work to prepare children for the adult world of which they will become a part.

Reading other forums, posters from other countries already see Britain as being 'comically tolerant' even to the detriment of the country (their words, not mine); they see us as being too scared to defend anything British at all for fear of upsetting someone who isn't British.

Good post HollyDaze The only thing I would disagree with ,is that private schools could do what they wanted.I would have ALL schools set up on a secular basis, with RE taught about the tenets of all the different faiths. Parents would no doubt continue to take their children to church/mosque/synagogue/temple. Allowing private schools to be faith based would be wrong.I am a Christian BTW but still don't agree with any faith schools.

It was obvious what would happen to the muslim schools to all but the government it seems.

Steiner schools all have a policy which states that immunisation is a decision left to the individual. As Mishap says, people send their children to Steiner schools for a variety of reasons and may or may not agree with the whole philosophy behind them. I believe that Steiner himself, though against immunisation, said this was a matter for the individual. I am not aware of any outbreaks of serious infectious diseases in Steiner schools and I'm sure they would be well publicised if they occurred.

I lived for a time in a Camphill community in the 1970s, a community where people with learning disabilities lived alongside those who followed Steiner's beliefs, so I have had an opportunity to get to know and understand the beliefs in some depth. I was not tempted to join them but I did gain immense respect for their intelligence, thoughtfulness and willingness to look at the world in a different way.

I do think that there is a case for state funding of Steiner, Montessori and similar schools. There are many children who do not thrive in the current state system, my son was one of them. Alternative forms of education should not be the preserve of the wealthy.

nightowl - wouldn't bringing about change in the current state system be better?