Is it time to make state education secular?

The Camphill communities are wonderful. There is one near here, and my DD did a placement there as a teenager. Adults with learning disabilities live and work in a large community (in separate family houses) - they cook, farm, make pots, and have a real valued role in their community. They are not having services provided for them, they ARE the services - their products are marketed and they have a niche and a role. Of course, there is a cost to the LA as with any other facility, but the extraordinary sense of community brings out the best in everyone.

Much better HollyDaze but I don't think it will ever happen, or not to the degree that's needed for those children that can't cope in mainstream. I don't see us raising the school starting age for example, or stopping all formal testing of primary school children, or having classes of 10 or less, or having a more flexible curriculum. My son hardly ever went to school because he found the whole thing too traumatic, and I don't use the word lightly. I'm sure he's not unique. Look beyond the truancy figures and the parents who are prosecuted and we might see a few children who are suffering throughout their childhood. I think Steiner schools and the like can provide alternatives.

nightowl - not sure if there are any American posters on here but doesn't their education system work on an ability basis rather than age when assigning children/young people to classes? Would that be a better solution?

I can understand how you feel regarding your son. My daughter could read reasonably well when she started school but her teacher told me that she wouldn't be giving my daughter any reading until the rest of the class caught up. She then forgot (not sure how) to include my daughter who ended up having to go for extra reading as she'd fallen behind everyone else!

My son struggled a bit at school which I always thought was just lack of interest in what he was being taught but maybe he found it a bit overwhelming too. He's fine now but it has made me think.

It's great to hear jingle that your grandchild has a best friend from another school. But I can assure you that it is rare, sadly. In many smaller communities, THE only school is C of E and the only choice, for someone who would prefer their child to go to a secular school, is to send them to another village. In fact, to another village perhaps a very long way away, or into the nearest town even, as practically all the village schools are CofE. That would have certainly been the case for us with our children. I felt it was wrong for us to be more or less 'forced', for the sake of our children belonging to the local community, to send them to a C of E school.

If you live an a town with several local catchment area schools it may well be different. If you look at communities as in Glasgow or Belfast though- I'm sure you can see how divided the communities are.

It is also divisive because many local parents believe the local C of E school is 'better' - for a whole range of reasons and not just educational, but also sociological, cultural, etc. In one area I knew well, all the middle class parents sent their kids to the local C of E primary, many as a free prep school for the local private grammar school- the curriculum was actually organised to help kids pass the entrance exam to that school. The other local school was left with 'the rest'- children from poorer families and most of the immigrant population. It was therefore very difficult for them to compete- as many of the children had difficulties which would have been diluted if the two schools had been on the same pegging.

nightowl you asked for evidence and I posted a link...
Camphill communities appear to do good work (and great cake in the case of the one in MK) - despite their interesting belief that being born with a disability is due to "karma"

If you were a Buddhist that belief would make perfect sense, Jess

The school my granddaughter goes to is an EP school, endowed parochial. Not quite sure where that fits. Lots of Catholic schools round here, and they are very prone to extremism.

I have read the link Jess but I didn't find it very helpful. It cited a number of different outbreaks of measles across Europe, one or two in Steiner schools, many in other schools or institutions. It suggested that there are many reasons for poor take up of vaccinations. I don't think it's a convincing argument that Steiner schools pose a risk to health.

The Steiner beliefs about disability are indeed interesting. I was actually living in a Camphill community when my niece with Downs syndrome was born. I can't express how helpful and refreshing I found the attitudes expressed. The universal response was that her parents were blessed, that only special parents were given the gift of a disabled child, and that we could all learn from those with learning disabilities.

Apologies if all this is off the thread subject.

Now here's an interesting view of faith schools. This writer thinks they aren't the problem. theconversation.com/faith-schools-are-part-of-the-answer-not-the-problem-27736?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+10+June+2014+-+1709&utm_content=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+10+June+2014+-+1709+CID_9e623653805bee4061d6a1e3d363b65c&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=The%20fear%20of%20belief%20is%20what%20causes%20the%20current%20hostility%20to%20faith%20schools

nightowl 'parents are blessed, only special parents are given the gift of a disabled child' ..... WHAT?!!!! Utter rubbish. I think my DD1 may have something to say on that score [and it would be the same as me.] Steiner, Montessori, etc, so many crackpot theories on education out there.

which is why , yes, it IS time to make education secular.

'Steiner is a kind of recently made up religion, based on a hotchpotch of ideas from other religions.' (to quote Jess).

Not from what I've read, it isn't. Steiner schools are not faith-based at all.

They have an underlying quasi-religious philosophy ana which is not always apparent.

jingles - if these schools are state funded, it's quite wrong that they should cater to one (diminishing) segment of the population, effectively excluding others.

I have to admit that my own experience shows me that the only effect of the 'Christianness' of schools in the far-off days of my own education, was to convince me at he age of eight that it was all nonsense...

Depends how and when you hear that message rosesarered. Perhaps I expressed it badly. All I know is those people sincerely valued disabled people for who they are and did not concentrate on what they might lack.

When my DD was at a Steiner school for 5 years, they learned about many religions - in a very colourful and interesting way - lots of art, music and dance. They celebrated festivals that were loosely based on saints' days with fun things to do - e.g. St Michael's festival involved climbing the local hill with kites; St John's involved a bonfire and lots of yellow and orange streamers to wave.

There really was no religious hard-sell of any kind. Can you imagine that I would have coped with that!!??

The Steiner philosophy is wacky - and not to say quite barmy in some regards. But the education is right for some children and gets them out of the sausage-factory of SATs and exams that blight many state schools. For instance, Steiner believes that children should not be forced into academic study too young because it will "damage their incarnating souls", whereas I believe it is just the right thing to do and gives them confidence (and anyway they have fun!) - the end result was what I wanted for her, so that was fine by me.

I am not sure that I think that Montessori schools are "crackpot" either. Their ideas that children, even at primary age, should be taught science, maths, languages etc. by teachers who are graduates and specialists in those subjects gets my vote. And the system of "vertical streaming" where children do individual subjects in different classes according to their ability in those subjects makes sense. It seems that where this is done well, there is no stigma attached and it is just taken as a matter of course. Of course, schools will put these theories into effect in varying degrees of excellence, but I think the ideas are interesting.

We do need a bit of variety around - schools are a weird environment for children to be forced into anyway - we cannot expect them all to fit the mould.

The Steiner approach to disability creates strong kind communities where these individuals thrive - again I am not too fussed about what motivates them, or how they express it - I just think the end result is to be applauded.

Well sad, Mishap!

I'm not "well sad"! - I'm feeling quite cheerful this morning!!

- sorry, didn't notice that! I meant, of course, 'Well said'.

It's interesting to note that in the USA all state schools are secular; in fact prayer is specifically banned.

That is definitely interesting about USA.

The British Humanist Association has a campaign on the go to make all schools secular in nature (not to ban religious education.)

Isn't it the same on France and other European countries? I don't know for sure. Over to you, Granjura and our expat grans!

Yes, secular in France, Ariadne. Church and state separated in 1905 ( I think), before which the local priest and schoolteacher were often at loggerheads in the community, according to what I have read. Religion is never mentioned in state schools, though philosophy is compulsory. I imagine that includes discussion of religions later on, though I don't know. There are some church schools which charge low fees and it is quite common for children to go to those. Of course they traditionally have Wednesdays off for catechism, but I don't know how many actually go to that.

Yes always been secular in Switzerland- when I was a kid, you could get extra lessons with the Priest or Vicar, depending on whether CAtholic or Protestant- but it was totally extra curricular. There were no private schools either- all those Private and 'Finishing' schools were for posh expats, mainly Brits, and in very limited locations. I only know of 3 friends who went to Catholic boarding schools a long way from home- all because their parents chose them to be the one kid who would become Priest- all are staunch atheist and ararchists now, of course.

There are many private schools in Switzerland, but again in very limited locations, mainly Geneva, Zurich and Zug- which are expat havens. In our local town they opened an English private school a few years back but had to close for lack of students. When the local state system is well funded, well supported and provides excellent education for all- why would parents send them to private school. Kids here all go to school together, rich, poor and in-between- and I think it really helps with empathy and social cohesion. Back after 40 years in the UK- I often meet ex school friends- at the till in the local supermarket, sweeping the streets or cutting trees, at the butcher's or baker's, or the bank manager, nurse or GP, etc, etc, etc- we've all grown to have very different lives- but we are still friends. So none of this 'them and us' - huge differences, yes- but it works well.