Being a European

Are you suggesting that if Britain opted to leave the EU all Brits living and/or working in other parts of Europe would be sacked and deported, Mamie?

No, but it would be harder I think Ana. Trade tariffs would undoubtedly have a negative impact on business and the free movement of labour. It isn't just in the UK; Marine Le Pen is gaining ground here too.
Obviously people have always lived and worked in other countries around the world, but I don't think you would have seen this amount of movement before the EU.

Now Mamie do you really think it would be any different to the relationship between England and Scotland if the Scots leave the UK?!! Of course we'll still get on. We came to France on holiday before the EU and will come again. We love it. We love the differences. As for trade agreements - that's what we voted for in the first place. A Common Market. Like Norway has. There's no reason why we shouldn't have that again.

I didn't suggest that people would not want to visit other countries and be friends, though. I was pointing out how ordinary families have become true Europeans, living and working in member states, to a far greater extent than they did before.
I am also not convinced that you can return to something as simple as a common market. I really don't think that the problems of a post-colonial, post-industrial world (to say nothing of climate change) can be tackled by individual countries with an inward-looking nationalistic viewpoint.
You might almost say, Better Together (and yes I do see the irony of people who want Scotland to stay in the UK, but want to be out of Europe).

I am with Mamie on this. Our European identity is based on freedom of movement to live and work and freedom of trade between countries as well as freedom to holiday. Norway should be a warning not a recommendation, they have to subscribe to all the EU rules in order to trade and remain in close accord with Europe but have no say in what those rules are.

Will there be a difference in the relationship between England and Scotland if the Scots opt for independence? Of course their will be. They will initially not be in the EU, they will, probably, if they join, need to adopt the euro as their currency and sign up for the Scheveningen agreement on free movement between countries. Gradually over the years they will do things differently and the gap will widen. I am not arguing for or against independence, I have no views either way, but to suggest that choosing all change will mean no change is a mistake.

There's a big wide world out there for us to trade in; a developing world with an insatiable appetite for the sort of goods we are still so good at making. I have never understood the view that if we are not in the EU we would lose our markets. What about the Commonwealth countries, USA, Canada, India, South America, China to name just a few?

We used to trade widely with many of them and still do. Europe comes with too many restrictions on our way of life to my mind, once it ceased to be a "common market" and started expanding its influence into so many other areas which I see as none of their business.

This is quite a separate issue from enjoying contact, holidays and the culture of European countries. Of course we enjoy those elements but its not just about that is it? We should celebrate and enjoy the differences between countries and not seek to homogenise them as the EU seems bent on doing.

The friends I have who are European, living or married to other Europeans, mainly did so before the EU. But I also have friends who are married and moved to Australia and the USA and China. I think it's just that the world is easier to get around.

The Europeans living around here are mostly Polish. They seem nice nice but insular, keeping to themselves. The ones who mix are Chinese, South African, Bangladeshi and American. Gosh, I hadn't thought about it before, but it seems our little corner of Norfolk is quite cosmopolitan!

(I meant those friends are married to Australians, Americans and Chinese)

So how exactly does the EU try to "homogenise" countries Gagagran?
I realise people get very upset about things like the power ratings of vacuum cleaners (though I gather modern vacuum cleaners are just as efficient with a smaller wattage), but where are the real, meaningful examples of this?

Mamie the Euro, Human Rights legislation, the numerous trading standards another (straight bananas anyone?) the environmental directives, all of which are meant to apply Europe-wide. This is what I mean by "homogenising". Surely I don't need to explain that?

Well the last time I looked the UK was not in the euro so not much homogeneity there. Human rights legislation I would agree on, but can only think of that as a positive. Why would you want to deny people human rights? I also agree with targets for conserving energy and protecting the environment and I think the need for Europe and the world to act together on this is essential for the future of our grandchildren.
I am very dubious about all of the straight banana stories tbh. Here in France we still have bent ones anyway.
I was more interested in practical examples of the way that people felt that their own personal freedom had been curtailed and their lives homogenised?

The straight banana story was a myth - yes Mamie, they're still bent here too. What's wrong with human rights legislation and environmental directives, Gagagran? Europe is a big enough entity to trade with other blocs, such as the USA and China, and to resist things like the TTIP which would allow American corporations too much say in our society.

FlickethyB, I know this is not the thread for discussion of Scottish independence, but EU states cannot be forced to join the euro, even if they meet the qualifying criteria. IMO if the UK had joined the euro in the first place it might have made it stronger and reduced the problems it had with the crash, but it's too late to find that out now.

I know it doesn't, on the face of it, make sense for some of us to want to be out of the UK but in Europe, but neither does it make much sense for some people to want Scotland to stay with the UK but the UK not to stay with the EU.

Living in Britain with a holiday home in France, both countries remain distinctly and enjoyably different. The straight banana/cucumber story was a myth. The problem is someone suggests something and it is immediately claimed by the UK media to be a new EU law, even when it is just a suggestion by one or two people and is never even considered by the EU secretariat.

With every European country in the Euro still recovering more slowly than Britain from the 2008 crash and Ireland's problem's probaably caused to a large extent by their inability to raise their interest rates in the face of an unsustainable construction boom because they were in the euro I am very glad we stayed out.

I like to think of Europe as being like the USA, a united grouping for business, but with separate identities for countries/states. The analogy is closer for all those countries in the eurozone.
My grandson was trying to explain about his family yesterday to a complete stranger. He is Danish and has Danish, Austrian, Polish, Spanish, Norwegian, American and South African people in his family, as well as English. Or United Nations in one family, as she said. It's certainly widened my horizons. We all get on.

Being a European

Is there such a thing? From what I've heard and seen, the Germans refer to themselves as Germans, the French as French, the Spaniards as Spanish, the Italians as Italians - the only people I've ever heard refer to themselves as Europeans tend to be some of the English.

Well I can't speak for everyone in Europe, Hollydaze, but I have certainly heard people talking about what it means to be European in France. They are French first, European second obviously. I have had the conversation with my son's Spanish in-laws too. I would say that the Spanish people I have met (in a large Spanish city not the tourist areas) are less positive than they were before the recession, but still don't seem to be turning towards nationalism as others are. My son, who has lived there for twenty years, says that he thinks people still have bitter memories of the time under Franco, when Spain was so isolated.
I am not quite sure what you mean really. If people ask where I am from I say that I am English, but I feel very much a European. Did you really mean that it is only "some of the English" who think like that?

It is an interesting question Mamie.
Sorry to raise the spectre of our imperial past, but what about our links with the former colonies?
Although I would not vote to leave the EU, and love Europe for its rich heritage of art, music, and architecture, in some ways I feel just as much a link to Australia and the eastern states of America, particularly Virginia, where I am now.

I am not sure that I do, Jane. Part of my family lived in India for many years and I also have family in Australia, but I have never really felt any strong link. My OH went to Australia on business and went to visit his grandparent's graves; he came back feeling that it was a lovely country, but he would miss Europe too much. He was born in North Africa and has always had a vague desire to see his birthplace (he only lived there for six weeks) but the political situation has been far too unstable for years. He does feel a very strong tie to the Mediterranean where we are at the moment, even though his birthplace is on the other side.

Well said Mamie, the war cemeteries of Europe pay silent yet powerful testament to the folly of petty nationalism.

I'm afraid I don't feel in the least European - but I did feel very at home in Australia, New Zealand and Canada. I think perhaps it's a language thing. I have enough French to get around, but not crack jokes, I miss the nuances of a common language.

Did you really mean that it is only "some of the English" who think like that?

I have only ever heard some English people refer to themselves as European rather than English.

Ah I see. Well I would never say "rather than English". I am happy to be English in France and European. Actually if I want to wind up the Maire, I say that I am a loyal subject of the Duc de Normandie (aka ER2).
He says "Ouf les plantagenêts".

Mamie

I've been puzzled by this thread since it started. Aren't we (in the UK) Europeans by definition anyway, whether in the EU or not?