Being a European

Thank you, Mamie, that's made it clear.

Ana
Just to be clear, my OP was about celebrating European union in the broadest sense and hoping that it would not be swept away by an outbreak of nationalism and separatism.
I have never doubted the need for reform of some of the EU's policies and institutions, but I think that the "big idea" of unity is still a good one that we should seek to preserve from within.
Of course we are geographically in Europe; I was talking more of mind and spirit. As papaoscar said, the war graves are a reminder of a time when Europe was not united.

If, like DBH, you work in a private school where half the teachers live in, they all have houses in France because they were cheaper to buy as a main house to have holidays in. I think they all thought they would be able to buy a house in the UK upon retirement, but it hasn't worked quite like that. So we know many, many ex-teachers who have either already retired to France or who are going to. And not all of them are all that happy about it, but know that they won't earn enough from holiday rentals, and would be very lucky indeed if they managed to get a decent sale at the moment. I hope it works out for them. I do have a couple of friends who have lived there for decades and will never return to the UK, their children have married French partners and their grandchildren are firmly French. They do get a bit wistful, but on the whole I would say that they are both very happy to be Europeans rather than English or British - and one of them is Welsh so that is saying something!

I only know of a couple of people who have moved to France or other continental countries.

On the other hand, nearly every other person I know or chat to seems to have a son or daughter living in Australia, New Zealand, Canada or China. Mainly Australia.

I've been puzzled by this thread since it started. Aren't we (in the UK) Europeans by definition anyway, whether in the EU or not?

Mamie

Ah I see. Well I would never say "rather than English". I am happy to be English in France and European. Actually if I want to wind up the Maire, I say that I am a loyal subject of the Duc de Normandie (aka ER2).
He says "Ouf les plantagenêts".

Did you really mean that it is only "some of the English" who think like that?

I have only ever heard some English people refer to themselves as European rather than English.

I'm afraid I don't feel in the least European - but I did feel very at home in Australia, New Zealand and Canada. I think perhaps it's a language thing. I have enough French to get around, but not crack jokes, I miss the nuances of a common language.

Well said Mamie, the war cemeteries of Europe pay silent yet powerful testament to the folly of petty nationalism.

I am not sure that I do, Jane. Part of my family lived in India for many years and I also have family in Australia, but I have never really felt any strong link. My OH went to Australia on business and went to visit his grandparent's graves; he came back feeling that it was a lovely country, but he would miss Europe too much. He was born in North Africa and has always had a vague desire to see his birthplace (he only lived there for six weeks) but the political situation has been far too unstable for years. He does feel a very strong tie to the Mediterranean where we are at the moment, even though his birthplace is on the other side.

It is an interesting question Mamie.
Sorry to raise the spectre of our imperial past, but what about our links with the former colonies?
Although I would not vote to leave the EU, and love Europe for its rich heritage of art, music, and architecture, in some ways I feel just as much a link to Australia and the eastern states of America, particularly Virginia, where I am now.

Well I can't speak for everyone in Europe, Hollydaze, but I have certainly heard people talking about what it means to be European in France. They are French first, European second obviously. I have had the conversation with my son's Spanish in-laws too. I would say that the Spanish people I have met (in a large Spanish city not the tourist areas) are less positive than they were before the recession, but still don't seem to be turning towards nationalism as others are. My son, who has lived there for twenty years, says that he thinks people still have bitter memories of the time under Franco, when Spain was so isolated.
I am not quite sure what you mean really. If people ask where I am from I say that I am English, but I feel very much a European. Did you really mean that it is only "some of the English" who think like that?

Being a European

Is there such a thing? From what I've heard and seen, the Germans refer to themselves as Germans, the French as French, the Spaniards as Spanish, the Italians as Italians - the only people I've ever heard refer to themselves as Europeans tend to be some of the English.

I like to think of Europe as being like the USA, a united grouping for business, but with separate identities for countries/states. The analogy is closer for all those countries in the eurozone.
My grandson was trying to explain about his family yesterday to a complete stranger. He is Danish and has Danish, Austrian, Polish, Spanish, Norwegian, American and South African people in his family, as well as English. Or United Nations in one family, as she said. It's certainly widened my horizons. We all get on.

Living in Britain with a holiday home in France, both countries remain distinctly and enjoyably different. The straight banana/cucumber story was a myth. The problem is someone suggests something and it is immediately claimed by the UK media to be a new EU law, even when it is just a suggestion by one or two people and is never even considered by the EU secretariat.

With every European country in the Euro still recovering more slowly than Britain from the 2008 crash and Ireland's problem's probaably caused to a large extent by their inability to raise their interest rates in the face of an unsustainable construction boom because they were in the euro I am very glad we stayed out.

The straight banana story was a myth - yes Mamie, they're still bent here too. What's wrong with human rights legislation and environmental directives, Gagagran? Europe is a big enough entity to trade with other blocs, such as the USA and China, and to resist things like the TTIP which would allow American corporations too much say in our society.

FlickethyB, I know this is not the thread for discussion of Scottish independence, but EU states cannot be forced to join the euro, even if they meet the qualifying criteria. IMO if the UK had joined the euro in the first place it might have made it stronger and reduced the problems it had with the crash, but it's too late to find that out now.

I know it doesn't, on the face of it, make sense for some of us to want to be out of the UK but in Europe, but neither does it make much sense for some people to want Scotland to stay with the UK but the UK not to stay with the EU.

Well the last time I looked the UK was not in the euro so not much homogeneity there. Human rights legislation I would agree on, but can only think of that as a positive. Why would you want to deny people human rights? I also agree with targets for conserving energy and protecting the environment and I think the need for Europe and the world to act together on this is essential for the future of our grandchildren.
I am very dubious about all of the straight banana stories tbh. Here in France we still have bent ones anyway.
I was more interested in practical examples of the way that people felt that their own personal freedom had been curtailed and their lives homogenised?

Mamie the Euro, Human Rights legislation, the numerous trading standards another (straight bananas anyone?) the environmental directives, all of which are meant to apply Europe-wide. This is what I mean by "homogenising". Surely I don't need to explain that?

So how exactly does the EU try to "homogenise" countries Gagagran?
I realise people get very upset about things like the power ratings of vacuum cleaners (though I gather modern vacuum cleaners are just as efficient with a smaller wattage), but where are the real, meaningful examples of this?

(I meant those friends are married to Australians, Americans and Chinese)

The friends I have who are European, living or married to other Europeans, mainly did so before the EU. But I also have friends who are married and moved to Australia and the USA and China. I think it's just that the world is easier to get around.

The Europeans living around here are mostly Polish. They seem nice nice but insular, keeping to themselves. The ones who mix are Chinese, South African, Bangladeshi and American. Gosh, I hadn't thought about it before, but it seems our little corner of Norfolk is quite cosmopolitan!

There's a big wide world out there for us to trade in; a developing world with an insatiable appetite for the sort of goods we are still so good at making. I have never understood the view that if we are not in the EU we would lose our markets. What about the Commonwealth countries, USA, Canada, India, South America, China to name just a few?

We used to trade widely with many of them and still do. Europe comes with too many restrictions on our way of life to my mind, once it ceased to be a "common market" and started expanding its influence into so many other areas which I see as none of their business.

This is quite a separate issue from enjoying contact, holidays and the culture of European countries. Of course we enjoy those elements but its not just about that is it? We should celebrate and enjoy the differences between countries and not seek to homogenise them as the EU seems bent on doing.

I am with Mamie on this. Our European identity is based on freedom of movement to live and work and freedom of trade between countries as well as freedom to holiday. Norway should be a warning not a recommendation, they have to subscribe to all the EU rules in order to trade and remain in close accord with Europe but have no say in what those rules are.

Will there be a difference in the relationship between England and Scotland if the Scots opt for independence? Of course their will be. They will initially not be in the EU, they will, probably, if they join, need to adopt the euro as their currency and sign up for the Scheveningen agreement on free movement between countries. Gradually over the years they will do things differently and the gap will widen. I am not arguing for or against independence, I have no views either way, but to suggest that choosing all change will mean no change is a mistake.

I didn't suggest that people would not want to visit other countries and be friends, though. I was pointing out how ordinary families have become true Europeans, living and working in member states, to a far greater extent than they did before.
I am also not convinced that you can return to something as simple as a common market. I really don't think that the problems of a post-colonial, post-industrial world (to say nothing of climate change) can be tackled by individual countries with an inward-looking nationalistic viewpoint.
You might almost say, Better Together (and yes I do see the irony of people who want Scotland to stay in the UK, but want to be out of Europe).