American torture

Agreed Nonnie.

And let's not forget who nurtured and financed the Mujahideen (originators of the Taliban) in the first place, when they were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.

Yes Riverwalk perhaps people could do with being reminded of that. Many people aren't aware of how it used to be. I have told mine about it , the changing sides and alliances that went on, and also that bombing of civilians is nothing new, and actually 9/11 although truly atrocious, wasn't the first time it had happened. If you listened to some US politicians you would think it was. Some of these same politicians were active supporters of the IRA and funded campaigns which bombed mainland Britain and killed many innocent people. I wonder how many of them stopped funding the glorious freedom fighting IRA when someone else's freedom fighters bombed the World Trade Centre?

Mentioning the nazis is wrong. The people they treated so cruelly were quite definitely innocents.

Marty having read your profile, your agreement means a lot to me.

A light needs to be shone into the darker corners of UK involvement/complicity re. extraordinary rendition. It's not just the Americans.

If one makes it possible that someone is tortured, but stands back without getting their hands dirty, are they not also guilty of it?

If a person has hurt you, it doesnt mean that you should hurt them back.
It just escalates a problem.
You should carry on loving and caring about them, and ultimately you may be able to win them round that way.
Some will never be won round, but others can be.
There are some it is obvious that you cant quite early on [personally I think ISIS is on this category]. But they still shouldnt be tortured if captured.

They are guilty ffinnochio.

It was a rhetorical question, soon.

Pisses me off all this American bashing on GN.

ffinochio as the OP I was careful to say 'many' American comentators. We all know that the spokespersons wheeled out to defend the actions of politicians and the army or other powerful institutions will take a hard line. These are the ones who have been on our screens - Channel 4 News last evening, for example. That's not American bashing.

I also find it interesting that the term 'high minded' has become an insult on GN. There is nothing high minded about condemning torture. As was noted above it is forbidden by the Geneva convention and I find it unbelievable that anyone could could justify it on any grounds whatsoever. Self evidently, it doesn't work, but even if it did, to repay violence with violence and one wrong with another will simply lead us into barbarity.

soon I don't advocate 'loving and caring' for suspects, just not torturing them.

And for those who do advocate torture - how much information was obtained, and how many individuals were prosecuted?

Did the end justify the means?

Wasn't it Ghandi who said "an eye for an eye means a world full of blind people".

Torture is proven to be unproductive in most cases, I am sure there was some useful information obtained but on the whole it doesn't work.

I am sure there are many drugs which can be used to gain information.

The problem with supporting torture is where does it begin and end?

International law does not allow for torture by any state under any circumstances. This is for the very reason that I have outlined above. It is an outrageous act which degrades the perpetrator and those who look kindly on those perpetrators.

MiceElf Yes, needed that nudge to clarify and put me back on track and regain objectivity.

Just recently there has seemed to be a drip-drip-drip of anti-American feeling on here, and as I have two wonderful American grandchildren and quite a big extended American family, it does get somewhat tiresome.

ffin we are able to distinguish between the politicians, secret service and the military and ordinary folk in USA, the same as we can in the UK. Of course MI6 should come clean but they won't - we have a different system here that does not allow for transparency.

ffinochio I am most certainly not anti American, having very good American friends and admiring a lot of American culture. Indeed I am in admiration of this administration having the courage to investigate and publish this report. And I agree with those above who have remarked that anyone in the UK who sanctioned extraordinary rendition should also be named with the evidence of what they knew set out in full.

My OP was about my reaction to those who sought to justify the torture.

Hissy-fit over now MiceElf. Apologies for any slight derailment of your OP.
Just to clarify, my first sentence of last post was a genuine comment of thanks.

I do get pissed off with anti-American examples of how barbaric they have been again. Look behind the reporting and think about the 'allies' who have trained them in torture techniques, or been first off the blocks with their eagerness to trade ammunition and weapons with rebels who become terrorists, and then get captured and tortured. Where do American citizens' guns and rifles get made? It's all much closer to home. Willingness to condone torture and turn a blind eye when it's happening reflects a violent society. America shouldn't torture or bear arms - we shouldn't help train them or sell them the weapons.

It doesn't do to get side tracked as to what nationality committed this crime. The point is that torture is being carried out, and where ever this occurs we should strongly condem it.

Exactly, whitewave.

Our so-called "war on terror" has as its aim the creation of civilized societies that do not indulge in barbarism. Torture is barbarism. This is called shooting yourself in the foot; or pots and kettles maybe.

We do have to find ways of resisting barbarism; indulging in it ourselves is not the way forward.

Yes, it is hard; yes, we feel angry with people who perpetrate these dreadful acts; yes, getting information is critical. There are no easy answers; but torture is not the route to pursue.

Listening to what was done to these people - some of whom were as innocent as you or I - is perfectly horrifying.

I shudder to think what our involvement was - I cannot bear to know.

make no mistake the U.K are probably just as guilty as the U.S.A we are just better at covering it up. (after all we've been at it longer) War even a just war is messy and cruel. Atrocities will have been committed by both sides. I think its naive to think that these sort of atrocities are not committed by 'our side' I think where ever or when ever there are wars, now or in the future, torture will be used.

I heard Blair is unlikely to be questioned about what he knew.
There"s a surprise then,not really good enough !

They don't refer to him as "Teflon Tony" for nothing Nonu