Breaking News - Allegedly 10 people killed at office of satirical magazine in Paris

Then jingl I am afraid you are guilty of the same prejudice as those who regard all non-Muslims as not worthy of respect as infidels and unbelievers.

I think that what I am saying is less "cut and dried" Soutra than the proponents of free speech as a infallible principle that covers all scenarios. I am looking at the world as being in shades of grey, where nothing is 100%.

For instance, as a principle murder is wrong; but many condone mercy killing in certain circumstances.

As a principle freedom of speech is right, but many would say that this right needs to be exercised with responsibility.

Banging the drum of free speech without considering the consequences or alternatives is no way forward in this tricky world situation. It smacks of the sort of fundamentalism that got us here in the first place.

What about the holocaust? That was anti a particular religion (& others I know)

Islam, at heart, is a peaceful religion, soontobe, as is Christianity - at heart. As I just said, but maybe not clearly enough, it is how men have interpreted and used these, and other religions to make them able to justify whatever atrocities they wish to perpetrate. Think of the Inquisition.

The smugness of being assured one is in the right is very dangerous.

And - I have made no comments, as far as I can remember, about satirical drawings or satire in general.

However, to quote Penstemmon "Once we try to blame victims of violence then we give power to the perpetrators of violent acts." I agree.

I am trying to move the discussion away from religion - about which there will never be agreement - towards thinking about how this dangerous world situation can be tackled in a responsible way. As I have said, I do not think it is by trading insults via the press.

annodomini. Islam seems to have gone off in a completely different direction to much of the Old Testament in the bible, and certainly has nothing of the New Testament.
So the links appear tenuous at best.

I mean the links between Islam and christianity.

Soutra you can love and respect people and still wish their religion had never come about. Yours is a very narrow argument there.

The holocaust thing is a rubbish post.

A fair enough post Ariadne.

Are any local mosques arranging "Not in my name" marches this weekend? Would love to learn of some.

Gotta go!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-martin-rowson

There are some excellent articles in today's Guardian on this topic. I have put one link above. It's really worth reading.

There is a suggestion that Charlie Hebdo mainly targeted Muslims with their satire and one journalist there in particular made no secret of his dislike and scorn for that religion, bordering on racism.

Of course, it goes without saying that does not in any way excuse the terrible murders in Paris.

Re Jesus in Islam -Warning, long post but it seemed better to quote than give a link:-

"Isa Ibn Maryam ( Arabic: عيسى, translit.: ʿĪsā) ( English: Jesus, son of Mary), or Jesus in the New Testament, is considered to be a Messenger of God and al-Masih (the Messiah) in Islam[1][2]:30 who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, al-Injīl (the Gospel).[3] The belief that Jesus is a prophet is required in Islam. This is reflected in the fact that he is clearly a significant figure in the Qur'an, appearing in 93 ayaat (or verses), though Noah, Adam and Moses appear with even greater frequency.[4] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.) which no other prophet in Islam has ever been credited with, all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means; instead, "God raised him unto Himself". In the 19th Sura of the Quran (in verses 15 and 33), Jesus is blessed on "the day he was born and the day he will die and the day he is raised alive", which clearly declares that Jesus will experience a natural death, and will be raised again on the day of judgment.

Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God. Traditionally, Islam teaches the rejection of the Trinitarian Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God. The Quran says that Jesus himself never claimed to be the Son of God, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.[5] Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing a strict notion of monotheism (tawhīd). An alternative interpretation of this theology is held by Messianic Muslims.

Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Quran and in Islamic literature, the most common being al-Masīḥ ("the Messiah"). Jesus is also, at times, called "Seal of the Israelite Prophets", because, in general Muslim belief, Jesus was the last prophet sent by God to guide the Children of Israel. Jesus is traditionally understood in Islam to have been a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming; however, according to muslim scholars this prophecy is in the Chapter Al-Saff verse six.[6]

Jesus is unique for being the only prophet in Islam who neither married nor had any children.[7] Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and to defeat al-Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).[8][9] Jesus will not return as a new prophet; Muhammad was the final prophet, but will continue from where he left off at the time of his ascension.[10]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

The article says that we must not stop laughing at the terrorists. I can see nothing funny about them at all - and also see no point in goading them, which is what ridicule does. How does that help towards a solution? This does not mean that we condone their actions or stop trying to find ways of countering this threat, but that we do so in ways that do not inflame the situation and put others at risk. There are children holed up in schools around these two terrorists in France. If some of them are killed, will it have been worth it to assert the right of a magazine to be insulting?

I worked with many very difficult people in my career as a social worker, people who threatened me and others - I was taught ways of defusing these situations without losing sight of the realities that needed to be challenged. Some of these principles need to be adopted at a world level.

You know, I don't think we can take much notice of any newspaper articles on this. They are journalists, looking after their own. Birds of a feather.

This might be a good time to spare a thought for the poor hostage. I believe it's a woman and as the gunmen have stated they want to die as martyrs....I won't say any more.

Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means; instead, "God raised him unto Himself

This is a crucial part.
To be a christian, you must believe that Jesus was raised form the dead and that he is Lord.

jingl. I think I agree with you in an earlier post where you say that probably ordinary muslims are running very scared. They are going to have to be very brave if they want to speak about the atrocities. I would also suspect that the terrorists would also have no qualms in targetting their families and businesses also if they spoke up publically, or even privately.

Agreed merlotgran.

Mishap you have to read between the lines.

soontobe I'm still here and I still defend those who wish to mock or satorise extremism in any form be it religion, politics, life style, etc. I may prefer it if the satire was more subtle and intellectual, though I suspect if it was it would be lost on the morons who operate at the extreme end of any religion.
Love and peace, turn the other cheek, live and let live is not on their radar. Wife's, mothers and sister have pleaded for the lives of their loved ones to no avail, they have still been beheaded. I suspect the more they beg the greater their pleasure.
Nothing seems to get through to them - except being mocked. I would feel happier if the mockery was directed at them and their leaders rather than their prophet though.

Let's not get tied up in the rights and wrongs of particular faiths - it goes nowhere. Some people believe, some do not - that does not preclude happy coexistence.

This thread is not about resurrection.

Let's think about the ways in which we, as ordinary citizens, can try and defuse the world situation. Might we write to newspapers asking them to feature articles on peace-loving people of all faiths and none, to act as a mouthpiece for moderates from all communities, to avoid inflammatory articles for the sake of peace? Perhaps we could arrange to meet up with those from the muslim community locally and look at ways of working together within the community, and of persuading them to start saying "Not in our name" more loudly?

Anything but trading insults, whether in the name of press freedom or of any other principle.

As merlot says - spare a thought for this hostage. I doubt this poor woman is thinking about press freedom at the moment.

Here's an extract:

'Almost 9 years ago, when the Danish cartoons storm erupted, I argued publicly that I thought Jyullands-Posten had been wrong to commission cartoons of the prophet Mohammad, as |I suspected they were just another salvo in the paper's decades-long campaign against immigrants, many of them Muslims, most poor and powerless, and some of them cleaning Jyullands-Posten's toilets.

And the next few paragraphs after that.

Anya my understanding is that the cartoons satirised mainstream Islam, not extremism, although it was obviously extremists who reacted.

A deletion! At last!

Thank you Soutra