Terror attacks in France and Tunisia/now

Goodness - four brief posts exchanged between Anya and me - the first of which was actually taking the mick out of one of my own posts - and it's seen as bullying of the highest order!

And if your ipad was playing up, Anniebach, why not say so instead of letting several people point out that it is Sharia law not Shari?

Put it down to the heat,Ana!

Part of the problem is that people who feel under attack by racist views of all sorts. Like being abusively called Paki or whatever, are likely to feel very threatened by such casual racism and look for solutions which might push them towards extremism.

There are so many young people involved in this "behaviour" I wonder if it has something to do with teenage development and teenage angst, idealism, feeling excluded etc.
Many of the USAs school gun massacres seem to be done by teenagers considered loners, who feel alienated. ISIS is to some extent just giving that group of aliented people "a cause."

ISIS is very violent yes. But not so different from the "Red brigade
and some other very violent political groups of the 60s and 70s
The Chinese "Cultural Revolution." Pol Pots appaling regime in Cambodia.
Over 2 million Cambodians were killed by their own government.

There was also a lot of pseudo religious cults about then as well. The Moonies etc. Parents having to kidnap their children back and deprogram the brain washing.

people.howstuffworks.com/10-infamous-cults.htm#page=6
www.americansc.org.uk/Online/cults.htm

What is so worrying is that this sort of thing seems to go round in cycles.
Something about "Those who forget their history.....?"

rosesarered, I have defended innocent Muslims and I believe condemning innocent Muslims is a sure way to drive some young Muslims to seek a place of belonging in the most evil of places. You object to criticism of some acts carried out by we British yet have no problem in criticising British Muslims . Someone posted that British Muslims live a comfortable life in this country - immediately seperating a Muslim who is British from non Muslim British , we are treating Muslims as we once treated Jews and for me this is so wrong

As for your views on some Muslims snearing at the march ,so will British far right extremists . We claim to be a tolerant country yet history shows we have never been tolerant , in my life time I can remember signs in windows - no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. I remember the intolerance following the Windrush era. Who can blame Muslims for remaining in close communities , they are doing the same as the Irish did, Jews did, members of the commonwealth did, yet these people had family members who fought and died in wars in the British army

Some here have not the foggiest that - they are not English is racist

I also think that unemployment is an issue. Amongst all young people.

I was replying to Nelliemoser's post.

Lapwing. Are you suggesting that all we post is ' Rest in piece' in response to the OP. Can we not give an opinion as to how these atrocities came to be?
Keeping shtumm for years about all that was/is going on didn't help anyone.

Ana, why should I have to explain after being mocked? Suppose I couldn't spell SHARIA, or genuinely thought it was SHARI, was mocking needed ? I am always willing to give an explanation if ask

No one mocked. They just pointed out that it was Sharia, not Shari. Please point out a post where your spelling was mocked.

Coming back to the question of whether Muslims should come out and condemn the atrocities - I can't copy I'm afraid, but a link has appeared on my FB page from Brotherhood in Islam, showing two brothers in full Muslim dress laying flowers in the beach in Tunisia and a card saying 'we're sorry'.

The comments that follow are all positive and acknowledge that the vast majority of Muslims abhor these actions as much as anyone else.

Marching is not the only way to express support for a cause. If people want to march peaceably, that's fine, but no-one should feel under any compulsion.

Peace loving muslims are now going to lose a lot of tourist jobs.

I had better put some, as the first word of that I suppose. In case someone says, how do I know they are peace loving.

anniebach I'm really surprised that little thing didn't roll off you. Perhaps you haven't been on GN long enough.

I was touched by those cards as well, janea, especially the one saying, 'So sorry we couldn't protect you'

One brave staff member chased the terrorist begging him to stop shooting the tourists. He was lucky to survive given it now appears the killer was off his head on cocaine.

I fear the tourist industry for the whole of North Africa will suffer now which may mean even more economic migrants.

After a while you definitely become like one of those turtles with a hard shell.

Oh back to the original!

Sorry.

Do we have any Muslim members of Gransnet I wonder?

The original thread was about terror attacks in Tunisia and France, but somehow the enormity of the deaths of so many, seems to have veered off into a counter argument about colonialism and disaffected people who don't like living in the UK as if that somehow mitigates these awful events.

I don't know whether where we live affects how we react, I live close to London both my children work up there. I worked up in town myself during the whole IRA campaign and yes it can make you twitchy and paranoid. I'm not sure someone living in say rural Wales could understand that, some areas are pretty safe, I'd never say never, but I think it's unlikely terrorist would target a gathering in a church hall in a rural village anywhere when they could pick off so many "decadent" young people at say The Ministry of Sound, a proposed target a while back. I'm sure an atrocity taking out great numbers could be committed in any urban area up and down the UK, after all didn't the IRA kill people in Warrington I believe, not an obvious choice. Nevertheless, London and other major cities will be prime targets as demonstrated by the 7/7 bombings, I happen to know someone who was caught up and injured then and that has shaped my feelings to an extent.

I don't buy the argument that somehow killing innocent people is understandable because you aren't having a very nice life here. Some of those Jihadis were doing more than OK in the UK, they weren't all living in impoverished circumstances by any means, there are privately educated pupils there, medical students, university graduates and they happily took what this "horrible" country had to offer. I dare say some of the Londoners that went possibly frequented clubs and establishments they would now like to blow up.

Marching for peace and against fear, whilst commendable, is futile unless those who wish to randomly target us in terrorist plots take notice of all of you on those marches, or is it just aimed at only far right fascist and not also the fascists that make up ISIS, because they are spreading more hate than just about anyone at the moment. We are hardly likely to get "peace and love" all round if we know that we are an ever present target for mass murder. A march to resonate with most would need to include the denunciation of fascists across the spectrum and that would include those who are sympathisers of the Islamic State. Lets not forget a terrorist bomb is a threat to all manner of people, particularly in a cosmopolitan city such as London, as 7/7 demonstrated.

BTW I do think sections of Irish were put under the Police scrutiny in areas such as Kilburn where Irish communities were prevalent, when the IRA campaign was at it's height. The main difference between the Muslim threat and the Irish one was that the latter was sectarian and pretty much confined to Northern Ireland and main land Britain, but nevertheless I think some Irish were viewed with suspicion, possibly rightly or wrongly. The ISIS threat is more high profile and global. In any case I don't ever remember a declaration once a bomb had gone off along the lines of "that one was from Pope Paul V1 or it was the will of Jesus Christ" There wasn't such a pervasive threat from them, insomuch as their wanting to replace our way of life with something brutal, subjugating and inferior.

Just wanted to add that I thought the Tunisians that did everything they could to protect the people on the beach and nearby shops were brave and heroic and I'm sorry their tourist industry will suffer as a result of the terrorist attacks.

Hear,hear,TerriBull. And why did they attack Tunisia? Because it's a secular country that respects women.

TerriBull I think you make some very good points. I think we should also bear in mind that these terrorists are not just attacking former colonial powers, for which some justification however unconvincing might be produced. They are attacking anyone and any body that opposes them and many innocent and uninvolved people all over the world in all continents. Their aim is to disrupt the proper functioning of government so that they can seize control in the ensuing chaos.

I have wondered that Galen.

Terribull You say "I don't buy the argument that somehow killing innocent people is understandable because you aren't having a very nice life here."

I don't think that those (young) British Muslims who say they don't have a very nice life here are necessarily saying that they support or understand the killing of innocent people.
I heard a security expert the other day referring to surveillance at the height of the IRA troubles. He said they knew that there were hard core of about 500 people who would go out and actually kill people. Then there were another 10,000 or so who would help them, but not actually detonate a bomb or pull a trigger. Then there were thousands more who liked the idea of a united Ireland, and supported the ideals, but whose support went no further than that. Of course the majority abhorred the violence. The problem for the security services was working out which group people belonged to.
I think it's similar with the British Muslim community.

I think it must be really difficult being a second or third generation young British Muslim, often with pressures to conform to two very different cultures.
It's no wonder that some of them find it almost intolerable.

And no, I'm not excusing violence in any way.

Out of interest during PMQ's Conservative MP Rehman Chishti asked for the use of the word 'Daesh' to be used rather than 'Islamic State' etc. Good .

It is my belief that the term 'Daesh' is more acceptable to the Muslim population who are not fundamentalist and disassociate themselves to ISIS/ISIL/DAESH. Not only because it more acceptable to Muslims, it will concentrate minds that it is a specific group, not the Muslim faith for those who see no difference.

I have read through this thread and I have not posted much but I would like to say that there is a debate about the 'perceived' feeling of animosity in the UK toward the Muslim Faith and those who live in the UK. I think there is by far more consensus in the UK that there is a vast difference between being a Muslim and being a Muslim fundamentalist than some posters believe.

I do know that there are some of the Muslim faith that are actually afraid of what some mosques are preaching and the creeping of fundamentalism that has taken place over many years..

To my mind we can no longer use polite/politically correct debate as to the danger of Daesh, it is a war against the world and not just Christianity, The West etc. they are murdering Muslims, women and childrenchildren the world over yet the world is stuck in a political maelstrom of incapability to protect it's citizens from their barbarity.

What a pity the likes of NATO, The UN, Russia, The EU , America, Arabic, African, Asian Nations can't see that until the world unites against Islamic Fundamentalism /Daesh every country will be a target for the murder of their own people. It is the arrogance, pig headed leaders of the so called democratic , free world that gives the b-----s a free hand.

Sorry to be going back a bit but I thought nelliemoser had a good point about young people/exclusion/cyclical nature of uprisings against whoever. Radical Islam is a good example.