English Votes for English Laws

Exactly Lilygran.

"English votes for English laws, an answer to the conundrum formerly known as the West Lothian question, undoubtedly speaks to a genuine sense of grievance, although not one with much basis in fact. According to the Commons library, almost all the legislation since 2001 has been passed with the support of a majority of English MPs as well as a majority in the Commons as a whole. Researchers counted 3,800 divisions. Less than 1% would have had a different outcome without Scottish votes. In fact, the power of Scottish MPs in particular either to obstruct laws the English want, or to force through ones that they reject, is almost entirely theoretical."

From a Guardian article, believe it or not. There is no reason to have this legislation apart from pettiness.

'the English'! Isn't that racist?

That is a good point Lilygran.

Scotland voted not to be on its own. That was Scotland's choice, and it got its way.

I dont understand what Scotland has not got, that it was promised? But dont answer anyone if that is a stupid question.

The use of quoting the number of Westminster MP's is factual but slightly a disingenuous point to make. No offence intended, merely stating an opinion.

It is also worth remembering the numbers of 'elected members/politicians' of the devolved nations. The Members of the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly Members and N. Ireland members have more sway over some decision making to those devolved countries than even the Westminster Prime Minister, Cabinet Members and MP's, the UK government so their numbers must be included for fairness alone.

Of course you cannot remember to add/ include the English members, as England is the only country out of the 4 nations of the UK that doesn't have a devolved Assembly/Parliament does it.

Carwin Jones nor Nicola Sturgeon attend Westminster but they can hold more power in their devolved parliaments than the UK Government . Why is it remotely fair/democratic the devolved countries can vote on laws/policies that affect the English only but the English are refused to have a vote on devolved countries policy making.

Example. Members of the Scottish Parliament voted against the English University Students having equal rights as those from the the devolved countries and the EU and charge the English Students fees. Wales has a 5p levy on plastic bags.

Devolved countries can vote on 'some' varience of policy for say Abortion Laws, Alcohol /Drink Driving Limits/Education /Health Service /etc. The Westminster MP's from those devolved countries can vote on English only policies yet the English politicians are forbidden to vote on the policies of the other 3 devolved countries. HOW on earth is that remotely an equal playing field and dare I say remotely democratic.

As I said in my last post. Let's try an experiment. N.Ireland,Wales and England have devolved parliaments but Scotland doesn't. After all it is only permitted for 3 out of the 4 countries that make up the UK are allowed to speak up for their fellow countrymen. If you are English and try to speak for your fellow countrymen you are crassly called 'Little Englander',bigot, racist,nationalist.

Remember the last General Election, The Welsh Assembly and The Scottish Parliament could espouse as much patriotism as they wanted for their devolved countries yet they were not candidates for election . No English MP dare to do espouse/display English patriotism in the same manner. Can you imagine the English running round with the flag of St. George draped over them in our towns and cities, ye gods there would have been uproar, yet it was no problem for the Saltire or Welsh flag .

Be proud to be Welsh, Scottish, and fly your flags with pride and think yourself lucky you have your own elected politicians looking after your interests but for heavens sake let the English have the opportunity to do the same.

Someone said that they'd not met any English person who thought Scotland should have voted to leave the Union. Well you have now. I think it was a big mistake. No doubt some were wholeheartedly supportive of the Union but perhaps, for others, it was fear of the unknown or the promises that Cameron made regarding extra powers that swung their vote.

Talking about English votes for English people makes it sound as if the non-English MPs don't vote in the best interest of the English. I wish there had been more Scottish MPs when the vote came for tuition fees. Maybe then our young people wouldn't come out of education with a millstone of debt around their necks.

You can't protect the Union by cherry picking what elected members of the national parliament can or can't vote upon. If England really wants it's own say then it needs to set up a second parliament leaving Westminster to simply deal with national issues.

If we're going to set up independent parliaments then I'd like one for Yorkshire as Westminster seems to focus on things that benefit London and South East.

POGS - excellent post that said all I would have tried to articulate
the misinformation needs to be challenged.

VQ - it is English MPs to vote on 'English only' laws - it does not matter whether the non-English MPs would vote in the best interests of English people but that they come from a part of the Union that has its own parliament to vote on these same things.
since Scotland and the other parts of the United Kingdom have a disproportionate number of MPs in relation to their population this becomes even more important as a way to redress the balance and ensure law-making is democratic.

So like the other countries we should have a separate English parliament with it's own elected representatives then Westminster could concentrate on national laws.

If you have laws that only English MPs can vote on does that mean that other MPs are banned from the Chamber during the debate or from the House during the vote? If so, how will this be enforced? What would happen if a non-English MP tried to enter the House at the wrong time?

I would love to see a realisation that we are not the United Kingdom, brought about by war but the United Kingdoms, brought about by consent.

Not sure the Welsh would see it that way. They didn't really have a say when Edward I and his armies moved in.

So right Vampirequeen , Wales was invaded , the land given to English lords and the title Prince of Wales taken by Edward 1 and given to his son, thus it has been ever since , so yes brought about by war, same for Scotland

Vampire I'm afraid you're wrong on the tuition fees - it was the very fact that almost all Scottish Labour MPs voted in favour of introducing tuition fees, under a Labour government, knowing it wouldn't affect their constituents.

It was a very close vote.

I'm glad they've all since lost their seats.

If England does have it's own English assembly it should not and surely cannot use the UK parliment for debate , should it not have it's own assembly members who do not sit in the house as MP's ?

Wales was finally annexed by England in 1283. That's over 700 years ago. At that time in terms of government, the English throne was part of an Anglo-French hegemony in which France was regarded as more important than England. Wales was a collection of small principalities and lands on the borders already settled by Normans. These territorial lords were in a constant state of dispute and armed conflict. It is nonsense to think of 13th century 'Wales' or 'England' in 21st century terms. The Scottish and English crowns were united in 1603 when James Vl of Scotland became king of England as Elizabeth's heir. The countries were united in 1707 by Acts of Parliament of the Scottish and the English Parliament. The two Parliaments then merged to sit at Westminster. In neither case was English government imposed on another sovereign state.

Sock it to 'em, lily! Well said.

Gracesgran yes! absolutely! vampirequeen independence for Yorkshire. I'd vote for that.

thatbags

VQ

'So like the other countries we should have an English only Parliament'

Yes, that is democratic/fair and has been an issue since the Blair Government gave the referendum over devolved Assemblies/Parliaments in 1997. It was a is mistake made at the time of the referendum for devolved parliaments not to include all 4 countries who make up the UK. London did become the 4th devolved Assembly but that is a fat lot of use to anybody outside of London.

What makes you believe it was correct/right for England to have been excluded at that time?

'You can't protect the Union by cherry picking what elected members of the national parliament can or cannot vote on. If England really wants it's own say then it needs to set up a second parliament leaving Westminster to deal with national issues' (presumably you mean UK issues)

The answer is yes, I agree with you, England does need to set up it's own parliament/Assembly , 'that is devolution' isn't it!!!! . Devolution is granted to 3 out of 4 countries in the UK.

Westminster 'does' deal with 'national issues/UK issues but the problem is it also gives votes toto the devolved countries MP's to vote on England only policies/issues but English MP's are not permitted to vote on theirs.

There is no/would be no/could be no 'cherry picking' of who/what will be able to vote on UK wide issues, that is why we have the Westminster Parliament to which all 4 countries of the UK have representation. UK wide policies will be voted on by all Westminster MP's as happens now.

I ask again of all those who believe England should not have parity with the devolved nations why should England /English voters not have the same rights as the other countries who form the United Kingdom .

If either Wales/Scotland/N.Ireland had been refused the right for having a devolved parliament but England and 2 others had devolved parliaments/assemblies would that have been acceptable, of course it wouldn't.

Votes for Yorkshire, votes for Cornwall, votes for Lincolnshire.

Why stop there, let's go back to the feudal system.

If England does have it's own English assembly it should not and surely cannot use the UK parliment for debate, should it not have it's own assembly members who do not sit in the house as MP's?

Couldn't agree more Anniebach. We should have an English Assembly with delegates sent by the regions with a UK parliament in the H of P - the Assembly should be more central to the rest of England. Each assembly would then be represented at the UK parliament. Some of the MPs seem to have forgotten that the Commons is for the whole of the UK.

I think some of you have misunderstood my United Kingdom and United Kingdoms post. I was saying that the United Kingdom was brought about by wars. If now each country wants to be a part of the whole they are choosing and a fairer "United Kingdoms" should be the name. I hope that makes sense.

As I said earlier, if there had been English votes for English people and no others were able to vote on English laws, whatever they are, only 1% of votes would have been different since 2001; that's 38 votes out of 3800.

So why all the fuss, and why does it have to be pushed through before the summer recess? Cameron said within a year in his manifesto. There is no time to debate it, and there will not be a vote.
Scotland had a referendum. Do we not deserve one, with a decent debate about it?

Understand what you meant now Gracesnan, if Wales had a referendum as did Scotland we wouldn't vote out, so we are now part by choice , I hope this is what you meant

MP's in England shouldn't have any part in an English Assembly . I don't see how it can work, but they want to,push on without the consent of the people, this is wrong.

Scotland and Wales held referendums jen, England has no choice

Exactly, Annie. The English should have a referendum on whether we need this new law.

"Restricting the voting rights of some MPs could be the single biggest change to the rights of MPs in decades – and doing so without following the appropriate parliamentary procedure is totally unacceptable.

“SNP MPs already don’t vote on English-only legislation which has no financial impact on Scotland. We don’t need a change of the rules to determine what we can and can’t vote for. We certainly cannot have this rushed through without proper consideration of all the consequences.” "

Spoken by the leader of the SNP in the Commons, who was elected to the Commons to have full voting rights. Now Grayling is saying that only the English, Welsh and Northern Irish are allowed to say what the Scottish MPs should be allowed to vote on.
English MPs will lose any moral authority they have if they go through with this.
Grayling will cause Scotland to have another referendum.