English Votes for English Laws

rosesarered, having devolution in the four countries doesn't seem to be the objection, it's no referendum for England yet there was for Scotland and Wales and for me I think an English assembly should have it's assembly members not MP's in the UK Parliament, where is the equality in this

Anniebach

There is no equality , as such . Never has been since Labour introduced devolution for 3 countries only.

It is repeatedly mentioned that David Cameron , Tories, government are rushing things through as though there is some cunning plot, something Machiavellian .

I am no genius but I think it is an attempt to start this government off with a level playing field , something successive governments since devolution have refused to do but this only allowed the 'West Lothian' question to ferment . It has been a thorn in the side for English MP's and for all the 'many' reasons pointed out it has to be addressed.

It doesn't/didn't help the tension over this matter when 'some' MP's from devolved countries gloat/say they will vote against the present government for nothing more than hatred. If anybody thinks I am making a crass remark I am sorry but it has been quite openly spoke of, therefore obviously heard, in the 'many, many' interviews the devolved countries MP's have given.

Whilst I would like to have/have had a referendum and hopefully an English Parliament/Assembly this would take years to come to fruition. The government is trying to appease an 'unbalance' which has taken place in Westminster for years by proposing a possible solution to the question.

I agree and have said it is a half assed attempt but the alternative is business as usual isn't it!

How has it caused an unbalance in Westminster POGS? I ask from interest not in disagreement

Anniebach

As mentioned 'many times'. Westminster MP's from devolved countries CAN vote for England laws and policies that apply to England only.

Westminster England MP's CANOT in turn vote on laws/policies that apply solely to
the devolved countries!

Why? Because rights are afforded to the devolved countries 'allowing' them making their own laws/policies as they are devolved nations, having their own parliaments/assemblies and elected MP's.

That is why devolution being refused to England has caused an imbalance within the Westminster voting system.

That is unjust POGS when Scots MP's can vote on criminal laws when Scotland has it's own criminal laws, but what a muddle it will be, change in criminal law and England and Wales vote, not sure about N Ireland , there must be a few others but if England had an assembly this would be solved , well not for criminal law. Just what matters that concern only England needs a parlimentary vote? What happens in England often affects the other three countries , what happens in Wales doesn't , I have to take care what I say or I will be hammered again . People complain Wales has free prescriptions they make no effort to find out what Wales loses out on .

Example of what is unfair but has to be accepted, money was never spent on hospitals in Wales as it was in England , we don't have a Moorfields but now we have to pay to be treated there . We have very few physciatric centres so have to pay for beds in England , Wales is a poor country , much more since we lost our pits, we cannot afford to build with the money our NHS is given by Westminster . We are stuck on the end of a much bigger country

Anniebach

"What happens in England often affects the other 3 countries".

That sort of statement is possibly where a lot of the problem arises.

Fact, Westminster is the parliament for the 4 countries who presently make up the United Kingdom. Westminster is based in England. Westminster has representation in the form of Westminster MP's from all 4 nations who vote on UK laws and policies, however 3 have their own policy making parliaments/assemblies in their devolved countries.

It is the geography of where Westminster is sited that gives rise to the 'perception' to those who don't understand / believe political spin that all laws are made 'solely' by the English and this is where the animosity/hatred/misunderstanding can be monumental in the mind of those who believe this to be the case.

I have no doubt if, years ago, the UK parliament had been based in Cardiff then it would be said the Welsh' run the country or Edinburgh the Scottish' run the country.

You only have to look and listen to the rhetoric of 'some' of the political parties and political 'spin' to make my point for me. Westminster is hated by Nationalists because they obviously want total independence and relish the break up of the UK. That's the point of their existence, their ultimate goal. I understand why some want that and that is democracy.

What I wholeheartedly object to and get annoyed with is the misinformed rhetoric of political spin that does it's damnedest to turn Westminster into the object of hatred to stoke the passion of nationalism .

England alone does not make the laws of the United Kingdom , I wish that point could be understood.

POGS, I do understand your frustration but laws are made in England simply because it's the biggest country

Again I will bring up Capel Celyn, not for nationalist reasons but an example of how England if inclined do as they wish - not the English people

A private bill sponsored by an English city to build a reservoir in Wales no planning consent required under authority of an act of parliament . The house voted, 35 out of 36 welsh MP's voted against - one abstained , the valley was flooded in 1965 after we fought against it for eight years, families lost their homes, the villages were told to have the remains dug up or cemented over, this was a village were generations had lived , farms were flooded. This started the rise in support for Plaid Cymru and following the flooding Plaid won it's first seat . An apology was extended in 2005

This happened simply because England had more MP's , so England can do as they wish , this has nothing to do with political parties , it's a fact, if the other three countries stood together they could not overrule England

Anniebach

Would/could that scenario happen in today's system?

E,G. The Wales Assembly would put a stop to it happening due to having a devolved parliament.

I hope it wouldn't POGS, but it could, leaving aside human rights which didn't exists then . But it can happen and i honestly believe the call by MP's for English votes by only English MP's is a hit back at Scotland , not a squeak for over thirty years and straight after the referendum in Scotland , I can see no other reason

Anniebach

I am sorry but I have to say we have come full circle now with your last post.

Have you never heard of the 'West Lothian' question , it has been an issue for years.

I suppose there is another point to make. Devolution came in the late 90's when Labour were the largest party. This is the first time there has been a conservative government since that time so that is the reason it is now being taken more seriously. The opportunity has arisen at last, nothing Machiavellian. (that's political spin for you, easy for some to believe)

I think your view it is a ' hit back at Scotland ' and you have never heard 'a squeak' about this issue over the last 30 years actually sums up my post of 13.44.

I have tried but I think I have put my point across and will be repeating for the sake of it.

[help emoticon].

At least we were able to discuss it politely POGS and I do understand some points you put forward, I also accept you support it because you believe it to be fair and not to kick Scotland. I cannot change my opinion that there should be a referendum , which I am sure would be a yes and there should be an English assembly , parliament should not be involved, our AM's are not allowed to speak in Westminster , this for me is being fair to all

but AB I think you are missing the point
your welsh assembly members are voted in by the residents of Wales - to your assembly
(same applies to Scotland)
England has no assembly (yet) but the English constituencies vote for their MP to represent them - they cannot vote for any EMPs (equivalent of SMPs)
all that is proposed (hopefully as a temporary measure) is that the MPs elected by English voters will act as EMPs when a bill comes before the house for debate that applies ONLY to England
previously as others have mentioned - there was a tacid agreement among the devolved constituency MPs to abstain if the bill did not affect them. Rightly or wrongly the Government feels that the devolved MPs (SNP particularly) could be awkward or obstructive.
this is not unfair to anyone and although it is not what most English voters would prefer it does redress the 'imbalance'

sorry meant 'tacit'

Anyone losing the will to live ?

English only votes for laws that affect England only - fine.

English only votes for laws that mainly affect England but also have knock-on effects for others - not so fine.

Let's hope that distinction is made sensibly by our elected representatives.

Let's just break up the Union and return to being individual countries. We've don't trust each other or see each other as equals. The English believe they are superior to the other members of the United Kingdom. Hell the English see themselves as superior to the whole world.

But if that is to happen England needs to be split up because tbh as a northerner I don't trust a southern based government in a southern capital city to consider the needs of my community.

No actually lets take it even further and return to our tribal areas. I don't trust the Brigantes or the Corieltauvi so I'd like devolution for the Parisi.

Are we one nation? If we are we should have one parliament.

I agree with you farnorth. The problem is that the government's ideas about who decides do not include anyone from Scotland. Why not?
A good way to divide the nation it is supposed to want to be united.

[sigh]

You've done your best, POGS!

POGS - I was very impressed by your erudite explanation. I tried to make the same points but with far less success.
shame it is not getting through and certain posters are exhibiting quite unacceptable 'racism' against the English.

.grannyonce, not missing the point I know you can't vote for what doesn't exist. Wales has AM's because we had a referendum and once the yes vote won members of the public put themselves forward for selection to stand as AM's , we voted , got the AM's and the assembly was up and running

I think you accusation of racism is nasty and a thumping big lie ,

Scots and Welsh MP's could not obstruct the government , impossible

I think an English assembly run by MP's is wrong sorry, not racism , just like fairness

.jen heard the speaker will decide what will be English votes only and English and welsh votes only and everyone free to vote , so there are no boundaries as in the assembly

The Speaker's going to decide?

Well, we all know what that decision will be...

What about Scottish?

The Scots will vote when the speaker decides it concerns them , this is why an assembly is vital, our assembly covers education, NHS, housing, roads and a few lesser things like ancient monuments, nothing to do with our MP's, they do not vote , their job is in parliament for which they were elected as the AM's were elected , we know where we are , they know where they are