The Left's way forward

Tegan, less than 1% of welfare claimants make false claims. If anyone was going to sort out the top tax problems that 1% would not matter anything like as much.

The Libdems now have a left wing leader which is good. Now we need one in the Labour party.
The reason Cameron has given Cornwall the right to look after its own affairs is because the people changed from Libdem to Tory at the last election. It's a reward, or bribe if you like.

I think the Labour Party needs to be very careful. They may gain some voters by abandoning their founding principles, but they will alienate many more. Say what you like about the Conservatives, but it's always been clear what they stand for and it's a case of take it or leave it. No one likes a party that wavers all over the place.

I only felt I could vote for Labour with Ed at the helm. Whether I continue to support them depends on who they now elect as leader. Anyone associated with Tony Blair is a complete turn off and I'm back to the wilderness where I languished between 1997 and 2015. I don't think I was alone there. I really don't think I'm extreme in my views, I'm just a socialist who wants a fairer society 'cradle to grave'.

Agreed, nightowl, and you are not alone.

That's my attitude too nightowl.
The Tories - "it's always been clear what they stand for" - going back even to the mid 19C. The preservation of wealth and power in the hands of the small proportion of already-wealthy. The LibDems tried to put the brakes on for a few years, but now they're free to revert to type.
It used to be clear what Labour stood for, why are they so scared to propagate it now?
Thinking about it more, the first thing a Labour govt. would need to do is to dismantle all the recent legislation which is systematically consolidating wealth in the hands of the rich, at the expense of the poor. Then set up a more equitable balance of taxation etc to fund social improvements.

Night owl, I would agree that power without principles would be bad, but we do not have a dictatorship, the Conservatives were voted in by the electorate.They do have principles, just different ones to Socialists.
The problem with a lot , or even most Lib Dem supporters is that they wanted principles ( their own) with no compromises, not possible!
now some Labour supporters are threatening to take the Labour Party the same way, down the drain.

I totally agree with you roses, and I was speaking generally, not trying to suggest that we have a dictatorship in this country. I agree as well that the Conservatives have principles, hence my later post saying everyone knows what they stand for. I may not agree with them, but I have to admit it's one of the party's strengths that they are clear in their aims and policies. That's where I think the Labour Party could learn something from them.

Yes, they certainly could. Any government needs a strong opposition to function really well, and Labour is just not fulfilling this role. they must get their act together soon.

Can I ask, in all of this, do posters think that Labour are going to get many seats back again from the SNP?

Only when Hell freezes over.

No.

Anyone watching the welfare reform and work bill? It's the one where the Tory principle is to get rid of child poverty by getting rid of the child poverty act. Poverty will no longer mean having little money from now on if this goes through.
The meaning of poverty will be having no work, not being low paid.

Jeremy Corbyn has principles.
The bill will abolish the government's need to collect poverty statistics.

Nightowl, what are these principles that the Tories have?
They said in their manifesto that they would reduce the benefit cap to £23000. They will reduce it to £23000 in London, but £20000 in the rest of England. That was not very principled.
There is no principle involved in reducing the number of those in poverty by getting rid of the meaning of poverty.

I think they are what TriciaF said above durhamjen - 'preserving wealth and power in the hands of the small proportion of the already wealthy'. I didn't say they were principles I admire, just that they have them and they don't ever waver from them. And I have a grudging admiration for the Conservative party for that, and for the way they have managed to convince the not-so-wealthy that austerity is good for them.

I think the term 'principle' doesn't necessarily imply a positive value, although it is often used that way.

Principle (usually principles) A rule or belief governing one’s behaviour (OED)

Or, from the Conservative Party's own website, these are their founding principles:

Conservative Party, byname Tories, in the United Kingdom, a political party whose guiding principles include the promotion of private property and enterprise, the maintenance of a strong military, and the preservation of traditional cultural values and institutions.

Okay, I believe you, nightowl. You just had me worried for a minute there.

How about this for a principled stand?

www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jul/19/south-african-anti-apartheid-heroes-urge-david-cameron-not-to-repeal-human-rights-act

Be interesting to see Cameron's response.

Yes that's a principled stand indeed. I think being principled and having principles can mean different things.

now.

Andy Burnham's decision on the welfare bill, which is being voted on right now.

"He is voting against the bill, because he is backing the Labour amendment that says the bill should not get a second reading. (See 5.40pm.) But he is also abstaining when MPs vote on whether to give the bill a second reading, in line with the instructions from the Labour whip."

Can you make head or tail of it?

Jeremy Corbyn voted against the government reform bill, along with another 48 labour MPs.

Even more . Think I need to lie down.

What a shambles.

I watched the debate, nightowl, from about six p.m. to ten, and then half an hour for the two votes. Very depressing seeing the front bench sitting down instead of going to vote against the Tory party.

I need more than a lie down. But I've just made myself a cup of mint tea, instead of the large glass of sloe gin I feel I need. That's because I've already had half a bottle of wine. Sloe gin might be too much.

Of course you are correct, the Conservatives have principles but all terrible ones!They are out to grind the faces of the poor into the dust, deprive us of all benefits,and there are strong rumours that they roast and eat orphans!
only the Labour Party can save us!Quick, where is that nice Mr Corbyn in his Lenin hat when you need him?
Newsflash! the Conservatives have principles and the Lib Dems also have principles, this simplistic nonsense that only Labour have ' good principles'
Makes me, and I suspect others, laugh.

I'd like to know what those principles are. Can someone enlighten me please?

It's politics Djen, all that sitting on the benches/ abstaining etc.They are doing what is best for them, the Labour Party.

Well I wouldn't go quite that far roses

Just because I don't agree with the basic principles of the Conservatives doesn't mean I think they eat babies. Nor do I think Labour in their present form will save us, or anybody for that matter. I don't know why you're getting so wound up about it. Surely we can agree to differ?