Were you offended?

Better tell my grandchildren's mothers to go back where they came from, then, Bez!

Another migrant boat capsized in the Mediterranean. Irish navy trying to rescue, but significant loss of life. 600 on board.

Would it make any difference to this tragic loss of life if we had an open door immigration policy?

Jen, do I remember rightly that your Grandchildrens mother is Scandinavian?
You know as well as me that that isn't going to happen 'go back where you came from'
Let's mention the elephant in the room: that ridiculous ( to my mind ) expression refers to black/asian people.

Anya. Of course it would. We know that many of these immigrants have/had the money to get to Italy or Greece. If we had an open door policy they would be on a plane here.

The difference between percentages of the managerial class wih 3 children or more and lower classes and unemployed is not very large, statistically, DJ and the "routine occupations" have more than "managerial and professional" so it is not a question of the nobs being most selfish in their breeding. The unemployed do seem to be sensibly following the "have what you can raise" limitation though.

"The highest socio-economic classes are as likely – or unlikely – to have large families as the lowest ones: 6.8 % and 6.4 % of the highest- ranking managerial and professional occupations have 3+ children, versus 7.4 % and 5.4 % for those in routine occupations and the unemployed."

Exactly, petra. However Bez said the problem was EU migrants coming to the UK and having the same rights as UK born citizens. My other son's partner is Spanish, by the way.
What Bez did not say was that just as many UK citizens go to other EU countries.
I said earlier that my Danish relative gets fed up of hearing people talking about immigrants as if that does not include her. It does. She is an immigrant just as much as the nurse or doctor in my surgery.

That's what I meant, Elegran. You only normally hear of the unemployed having large families in the media.
If it's a problem of population, both ends of the spectrum are important.

Exactly, again, petra, about the boat migrants.

It was said on the news that many of those on the boat would have lost a great deal of money, often borrowed from friends and relatives. I am sure they would rather their relatives were on an aeroplane than in an open boat on the Mediterranean.
Many of them would not know whether their friends were on that boat or not. They do not all have access to the BBC news. They will just be waiting for a message to get back that their friend/relative has arrived safely in Europe.
I find it unimaginably awful that this is still being allowed to happen.

Well, you are not going to hear about those whose families have no need of outside help, are you? You are going to hear about the occasional large family who do need outside help, and then those who have limited their family exactly because they didn't want ever to get into that position, so stuck to the "How many can I raise?" are going to be peeved to hear about them.

Those whose situation has changed once their children have arrived are in a different category to those who knew from the start that they were not going to be able to afford to try to raise a cricket team (or even a chamber quartet) but loved children, so went ahead anyway "The Lord will provide" and if he doesn't come across, the taxpayers will.

Jen that is not what I said - I said it was more complicated than just these poor migrants wanting to get to UK - the UK has/is taking a lot of flak over the numbers of migrants and refugees but a goodly number of EU citizens have settled in UK for a variety of reasons and it is far from being the largest EU land mass. There is at the moment not enough infrastructure in housing, schools, hospital etc to deal with the extra numbers. The EU and indeed the world does need to help - the UK is one of the first nations to give aid to any area of the world in need for any reason - and when they wish to stem the flow a tad all they get is flak from all sides. If these people can have their status cleared before they leave mainland Europe that would solve much of the clogging up of the system when they get Across the channel. They could also be told what they are actually entitled to and also things such as the practicalities of living in a cold wet climate.
The residents of Calais need help with the numbers and the EU should be there with assistance for any member state when help is needed.

The EU could have a standard questionnaire for those wanting to enter, including a list of the skills and qualifications of applicants.

This is slightly off OP but I hope relevant to the rather critical post about those of us who have over populated the planet.

I confess to having had three children, one of whom was unplanned. We were using every kind of contraception known to person kind, we're not unemployed or uneducated and we certainly aren't toffs but there we go, we had an unplanned pregnancy. I was 37 years old so ought to have known better, I thought I did and can well remember waking at 3am and suddenly knowing the reason I'd felt so tired recently was because I could be pregnant, I'd missed a period. I'd also drunk a glass of whiskey on arrival at my parent's in laws home earlier that evening - so had that huge guilt to deal with as well. The baby will be 29 very soon, is much loved and brought a huge amount of joy with her, so we've absolutely no regrets about over populating this small island. She is a primary school teacher, seems to love the children and they seem to enjoy her so hopefully she's a contributing member of this land.

I'm one of three, my youngest sister was mum and dad's surprise baby when mum was 38. Evidently mum, like me, was shocked and unnerved but got on with it. My sister has been an absolute joy since the day she arrived, she's 58 now. She hasn't been blessed with children, so balances out our family in the way Elegran describes above.

I've just heard on the news that another boat has sunk off Libya with a large loss of life. I heard a truck driver on radio 2 earlier expressing frustration at the £2000 fine he's been given after a couple of men were found in the trunk of his coach. They'd forced the padlock off and hidden in there whilst he was distracted by their pals at the front of the coach. What a mess it all is. Why can't the EU get its act together, have its various governments work together to assess people as they arrive, wherever they arrive. Some of the would be migrants will be genuine asylum seekers, others won't - let's work cooperatively to sort this out. Apologies for long post and posting on separate topics.

Elegran. Exactly! Keep it simple. Oh, but wait a moment, not enough people will earn oodles of money out of it.
Note to self. Stop being such a cynic.

Good post Bez.

Not offensive to me as a beekeeper. A swarm of bees is hardworking, clean, caring, mostly friendly and simply looking for a new place to live. There are far worse things to be called than that.

I expect that's what DC meant.

For those who are determined to be offended, there is no answer or explanation which will suffice.

"much of our problems are not these African migrants but the huge numbers of EU citizens who legally reside in UK and are eleiglbe for the same benefits as UK citizens. "

I know this is just one sentence, Bez, but it certainly sounds like you are blaming citizens from the EU who come here and are eligible for benefits. My grandson's mother has shown me a letter today to say that she can no longer have any tax credits. However, they do get DLA for my grandson. She pays tax and NI, too, but definitely benefits from the system.

If someone in life chooses to carry on using a word or phrase, that others think sounds offensive, then people makes opinions about that person.
I presume though and also, that they are not in the least bit bothered.

If it was more than two, then our generation overpopulated the country.
Guilty as charged, but one has emigrated and another wishes to do so, so our family is trying to do its bit.
The one still here has two children.

I have got three children. Thank the Lord.

Ditto. But DH's only brother has none, his mum's only brother had none, his dad's four sisters had just two between them. I'm starting to think we should have had more to replenish the stock.

More than 2000 people have died crossing the Mediterranean this year.
The swarms of people at Calais number about 4000.
Perspective?

What does JC say about the Calais crisis?