Gransnet forums

News & politics

Cutting Benefit deaths

(86 Posts)
trisher Fri 28-Aug-15 13:25:40

According to the latest figures nearly 2400 sick and disabled people died within 2 weeks of having their benefits cut and being told they were fit for work. The government thinks there is no causal link. I don't think that matters. Anyway you look at it this is shocking,cruel and inexcusable. So Cameron supporters justify it if you can.

Gracesgran Fri 04-Sept-15 12:15:49

Why do you think there is "only so much money in the bucket" CelticRose? If that were true we would all still be living as they did in the middle ages - or even the stone age - as there would have been no growth in the economy. It seems to me that the Conservatives are very much anti-growth these days - except for the top 1% of course.

durhamjen Sat 05-Sept-15 00:42:03

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2015/08/28/comment-ian-duncan-smith-has-shown-he-is-no-longer-fit-for-w

Article by Debbie Abrahams Labour MP who asked for the figures.

CelticRose Sat 05-Sept-15 05:55:04

I wonder how many buckets there are in fact. I read a few weeks ago that the NHS is cutting hip and knee ops by half. These are the most common ops apparently and there are too many of them. Will they be putting money saved from that bucket into another bucket? Read in the Guardian yesterday that certain cancer drugs are no longer to be supplied due to expense. Another empty bucket. If we can't afford private health care, how will we have a quality of life to the end of our days? And let's not forget the refugee money bucket. These people need a quality of life, too. Someone has posted that we are a rich country and can keep giving. I don't see how when you read Tricher's post.

CelticRose Sat 05-Sept-15 05:57:01

Sorry. Typo. Trisher.

Gracesgran Sat 05-Sept-15 10:39:59

It might it not be that the bucket is not empty where the cancer drugs are concerned CelticRose but that even the conservatives are blanching at the cost of the drugs which make profits for the companies concerned. It may also be that the they are not giving very much quality or quantity of life for the cost. That sounds harsh - it is harsh, but some harsh decisions have to be made. Although I totally believe you can increase the size of the bucket, some choices will always have to be made.

Remember all buckets are being reduced, not because the money is not available but because the conservatives have decided that they have a mandate to pursue the extremes of their beliefs. They don't but while they can they will be as extreme as possible.

thatbags Sat 05-Sept-15 10:45:44

I think bald statistics are always worth investigating. I'd want some proof about which of those deaths were actually caused by reduction or removal of benefits.

I see that the OP says she doesn't think establishing a causal link matters. It might not, certainly, but we don't know so it equally well might.

Gracesgran Sat 05-Sept-15 11:32:53

Good article Jen although I still don't trust any of the statistics. That, in itself, is an indictment of the government in that they do not produce easy to understand statistics during the changes being made.

In the article Debbie Abrahams says:
"People on IB or ESA are very sick and vulnerable and should not be vilified by Iain Duncan Smith as he did again earlier this week when he suggested that some people in receipt of sickness benefits are behaving in a fraudulent way. We should be caring for them, not humiliating and demonising them."

I can't find the link but in an article in the NS this week Laurie Penny heads it "No sick person responds to their diagnosis by thinking "I can scam taxpayers for £73 a week!""

Having talked about navigating the humiliating system for disabled people "without them being lied to every step of the way" She goes on to say "If the DWP would just come out and say that it doesn't believe the state should help people who are ill, disabled or injured, it would somehow be more bearable. At least people would know where it stood. But the stated aim of the welfare changes is to "get people working", because: "Work is the best route out of poverty."

Her analysis is that this is a "fib on several levels". She points out that in-work poverty is a larger drain on the benefits system than the unemployed and also that most of the things that help disabled people get back to work have been cut. She adds that the Tories have slashed carer budget and closed the Remploy factories.

She goes on to talk about the "propaganda assault" that "portrays the disabled and workless people as "scroungers", "sponging" off the state".

It's a long article and I think - if anyone can find a link - an eye opener.

durhamjen Sat 05-Sept-15 14:48:10

www.google.com/url?q=http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/dont-give-angry-population-hard-govern-depressed-population-easy&sa=U&ved=0CA4QFjAFahUKEwjYw4_qg-DHAhUB_XIKHY4zDPU&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGA-sd78xrVFJVrmMSi0sycb2gIIg

This is good by Penny as well.
It's how I feel.

durhamjen Sat 05-Sept-15 14:51:02

The article you mention is exclusive to the magazine, Gracesgran.

Gracesgran Sat 05-Sept-15 15:39:32

That's a shame but understandable Jen. Just one more quote then:

"The welfare state is being dismantled and rebuilt as a machine to manage and discipline the workforce into accepting precarious labour, low pay and no social security net. Iain Duncan Smith is proud of this machine. The machine is not broken, as many critics have suggested. It is doing what it was remade and designed to do. It is efficiently driving all the hope out of a sickening and insecure labour class."

My sadness is that this was always what was intended and either those who voted Conservative knew this and feel it is the right way to go or they voted without finding out what they were voting for.

durhamjen Sat 05-Sept-15 23:56:44

I agree, Gracesgran.
Wouldn't it be good if someone who did vote for the government could actually explain this.

durhamjen Tue 08-Sept-15 17:52:13

I watched IDS yesterday, before the speech by Cameron, on the welfare bill.
He upset disabled people. I wonder if that was his intention.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/08/iain-duncan-smith-disability-normal-commons

Gracesgran Tue 08-Sept-15 18:17:45

I would not be surprised if he thinks various sections of society are "different". He is a thoroughly unpleasant human being.

durhamjen Wed 09-Sept-15 18:36:44

This is interesting. Not just about the welfare bill and IDS, but Osborne as well.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-deficit-is-just-a-smokescreen-for-a-tory-attack-on-the-state-former-civil-service-head-says-10491761.html

What I's like to know is why did he take so long to say so.

durhamjen Wed 09-Sept-15 18:53:07

socialaction2014.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/the-dwp-is-now-largely-being-held-to-account-not-by-opposition-politicians-not-by-well-funded-charities-such-as-disability-rights-uk-but-by-activists-with-virtually-no-income/

durhamjen Wed 09-Sept-15 20:36:33

Law students trying to sort out the mess in the DWP while at the same time judges are resigning because of the mess in the courts.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/criminal-courts-charge-mass-resignations-amid-judicial-revolt-against-extremely-unfair-fees-10492130.html

We have another 4.5 years of this!

Gracesgran Wed 09-Sept-15 22:41:23

It's so depressing Jen. I don't know what will stop them.

durhamjen Sat 12-Sept-15 15:02:55

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/confirmed-un-is-investigating-uks-grave-violations-of-disabled-peoples-rights/

More good news.

Alea Sat 12-Sept-15 15:27:42

Tell me about it!(I actually hate that phrase!)
3 years ago DH had just won his Tribunal appeal against having his ESA stopped because he has a life limiting illness which cannot be cured or treated by any conventional therapy and is, frankly, terminal, when within the week he began a 3 month stay in 3 different hospitals with a series of infections which they couldn't sort. Another letter from ATOS arrived when he was flat on his back, needing full nursing and personal care and hooked up to IV antibiotics.
It was not without some satisfaction that I filled in on his behalf (couldn't write either) the wretched form that is meant to assess how "fit" you are for work (unable to walk across a 4bed ward, in his case) and rang the DWP office to tell them what I thought.

We never heard from them again.

Gracesgran Sat 12-Sept-15 16:07:30

Well done Alea. I just worry so much for people who don't have anyone to shout out for them. Yours is a victory over the inhumanity of the system and we should celebrate it.

durhamjen Fri 18-Sept-15 22:55:25

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/coroners-ground-breaking-verdict-suicide-was-triggered-by-fit-for-work-test/

Just been sent an email about this. How are the government going to respond?

Gracesgran Sat 19-Sept-15 09:06:50

Quite horrifying that this has not been picked up by other paper Jen.

durhamjen Sat 19-Sept-15 14:19:27

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3216438/Now-meddling-sends-lawyer-Britain-probe-benefits-reforms-violate-human-rights-disabled.html

This is more important to the Daily Mail, Gracesgran. Can't have the EU telling the DWP what to do.

durhamjen Sat 19-Sept-15 14:28:18

Something else that hasn't been picked up.

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/teenager-killed-himself-hours-after-wonga-cleared-out-his-bank-account/

Disability News Service only found out about it last week.
What else has been hidden as far as mental health issues are concerned?
Why was an 18 year old who had just come out of care allowed to take out loans with Wonga?
At least Wonga has tried to clean up its act now.

FarNorth Sat 19-Sept-15 15:59:41

"Last year a group of UN poverty "ambassadors" attacked Britain's welfare reforms. And in 2013, the UN's controversial Brazilian housing "rapporteur" Raquel Rolnik criticised cuts to housing benefit. "

What is the point of the UN investigating, saying it's all terrible, then nothing changes?