Can a drunk woman give consent?

This heart is sinking, when - along with feeling bloody furious!

Sorry, Elegran this is not personal. 'Once upon a time' women were kept under the protection of fathers and brothers who also abused them. It's not the role of men to protect women, in the past or now. We protect the vulnerable, not capable people who are just getting on with life. Instead of assigning themselves the role of protector, breadwinner or whatever, men would do well to concentrate on themselves and examine how they can stop women's safety being threatened, by changing their own attitudes or denouncing those of disrespectful, abusive men. Again, it's those abusive men who don't care who is looking after herself - they create opportunities that most people would never see. It's not about short skirts or low tops, nor going out at night alone. Women will generally avoid or run away from threatening situations (those rare headline rape stories about women getting drunk are not as common) - rapists who make friends or go on dates create seemingly safe situations.

MYTH: Women are most likely to be raped by a stranger, outside, in dark alleyways.
REALITY: More than 80% of women who are raped know their attacker; 53% of perpetrators of serious sexual assaults are current partners or ex-partners.

In fact, over two-thirds of rapes take place in the victim's home, the suspect's home or the victim/suspect's shared home. This myth can mean that women who are raped in these circumstances don't identify their experience as rape, and therefore don't report it.

It also puts blame on the victim, and limits women's freedom of movement by implying that rape can be prevented by avoiding certain places.

MYTH: Women provoke rape by their appearance or their behaviour
It's never your fault. No woman 'asks to be raped' or 'deserves what she gets' - only the rapist is responsible for the rape.
REALITY: Dressing attractively, or flirting, is never an invitation to rape. Rape is not a 'crime of passion' - it is an expression of power and control.
No woman 'asks to be raped' or 'deserves what she gets' - only the rapist is responsible for the rape. Rape happens to all types of women, from the very young to the very old - physical appearance is irrelevant.

There is no 'typical rape victim'. There is only one common factor in all rapes, and that is the rapist.

MYTH: If a woman didn't struggle, wasn't injured, or didn't report immediately - she wasn't raped
REALITY: Victims may cooperate with the rapist to save their lives; or they may be paralysed by fear. Following rape, many victims experience shock; this can make them seem 'unnaturally calm'.
Victims are often legitimately afraid of being killed or seriously injured; the rapist may have threatened further harm - or harm to family members - if they resist. The victim's perception of danger will influence their behaviour.
Victims may experience shame, shock, or denial, which might mean they do not report the rape for some time. The Court of Appeal has ruled that a late complaint does not mean that it's a false complaint.

MYTH: Women who get drunk or take drugs shouldn't be surprised if they are raped or sexually assaulted
REALITY: Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex.
Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex.
If a woman has consumed alcohol (fewer than four in 10 cases), it is the man's responsibility to ensure that the victim has given, or is capable of giving, consent. If he does not do so, he is committing rape.

Simlilarly, a woman is not to blame if she drinks alcohol and is raped. Women have the same right to consume alcohol as men.

MYTH: Women often lie about rape, and police officers and jurors should bear this in mind
REALITY: There is no research evidence that false allegations are more common than for many other crimes.
Home Office research indicates that between 3-8% of initial allegations are false, but that the lower figure is likely to be most accurate.
Far from being widespread, malicious accusations are rare. A much greater problem in the criminal justice system is the under-reporting of rape - the government estimates that 89% of rapes are never reported to the police at all.
In addition, only 5.3% of rapes reported to the police end in a conviction for rape - the lowest rate of any country in Europe, except for Ireland.

MYTH: It's not rape if a woman has consented to some sexual intimacy, or has previously had sex with many partners
REALITY: A woman can withdraw consent at any time during sexual activity. Having many previous sexual partners does not imply generalised consent to sex.
A woman has a right to change her mind about having sex at any time during sexual contact. If a sexual partner does not stop at this point, it is sexual assault. All men are capable of stopping sexual activity at any point.

Likewise, having previously consented to sex with other partners does not imply consent to all partners. Women involved in prostitution are as capable of being raped as other women.

MYTH: Rape can't take place in an ongoing relationship
Previous consent to sex does not imply ongoing consent, and sex without consent is rape.
REALITY: Previous consent to sex does not imply ongoing consent, and sex without consent is rape. It makes no difference whether the aggressor is a woman's husband or partner, or a complete stranger - 22% of rapes are committed by partners or ex-partners.
It's irrelevant whether or not a person is in a relationship with someone or has had sex with them previously. Lord Judge, Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, told a court to approach rape within a relationship, including marriage, as "no less serious than rape by a stranger".

Consent must be given every time two people engage in sexual contact. Sex without consent is rape.

MYTH: Some rapes aren't 'serious' rapes
REALITY: All rape is a violation, whether or not the rapist is a stranger, or uses violence. 

All rapes are serious; some rapes and sexual assaults are compounded by other crimes, such as further violence, kidnapping or abuse, which will add to the woman's trauma.

Acquaintance rape survivors may feel particularly vulnerable, since they have found that even people they trusted may hurt them. They may often have to face their assailants after the rapes, causing additional distress, fear and humiliation. They also tend to view themselves more negatively, and suffer more serious psychological problems than other victims.

Thanks, Puffin. Very helpful.

I agree with all of that. Never disagreed. The salient point of all my posts was "How can women distinguish a potential rapist from a genuine date? The truth is - she can't "

And of course protection can be control and control can be abuse.

The answer (if there is one) is the education of boys from an early age into a culture that abhors rape and the use of superior force (physical and non-physical) under all circumstances, not just male-female relations.

Is Utopia just round the corner?

For the third time, I am off to do Other Things. Really.

How to define 'provocative clothing'? Mini skirts, for example, have been around for fifty years. Most of us gransnetters must have worn one at some time. I have. My DiLs do, and so do my GDs. I don't believe that the majority of men take scanty clothing as an invitation to have sex.

How to define 'provocative clothing'? Mini skirts, for example,
have been around for fifty years. Most of us gransnetters must have worn one at some time. I have. My DiLs do, and so do my GDs. I don't believe that the majority of men take scanty clothing as an invitation to have sex.

How to define 'provocative clothing'? Mini skirts, for example,
have been around for fifty years. Most of us gransnetters must have worn one at some time. I have. My DiLs do, and so do my GDs. I don't believe that the majority of men take scanty clothing as an invitation to have sex.

Damn laptop! Either it doesn't respond at all or it responds in spades. Sorry about the repetition.

Elegran, you wrote 'Women have the right to show a lot of flesh if they want to, but they also have the responsibility of not promising more than they will want to deliver.' I fail to see how wearing a short skirt is 'promising' anything. Do you think

annodomini I don't think your laptop is to blame because it's happened to me on another thread

Husbands don't always take no as meaning NO! I can therefore quite see that some men will step over the boundaries, unfortunately.

Do men therefore have the right to show a lot of flesh if they want to?

Are people not judged by their clothes.

I had to laugh when I read just now on another thread that it didn't matter what JC wore so long as it was '...and decent'

So men have to be 'decent' especially if in the public eye, but women can flaunt the flesh and that's ok?

Double standards or what?

No one has to be decently dressed, whatever the fuck that is, it isn't a green light for rape whatever your sex, rapists don't give a shit what you wear

Not impressed by sweeping generalisations.

Has anyone taken the time to read that thread about Gransnet rape myths on Mumsnet?. Upsetting to see how some mums have disclosed rape experiences and are distressed by many comments on this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2460636-Rape-myths-thread-in-gransnet

Rather than having to bring our daughters (and sometimes our sons) up learning how to avoid being raped, we should be bringing our sons up not to be rapists.
People may try blaming rape on alcohol, drugs, dress, attitude, but the only thing 100% to blame for rape is a rapist.

... and for anyone who has difficulty struggling to understand the difference between rape and consent, read this comparison about making someone a cup of tea.
rockstardinosaurpirateprincess.com/2015/03/02/consent-not-actually-that-complicated/

When men and women are drunk they become vulnerable in so many ways, not just sexually. Drinking to excess is something to be deprecated in either sex. Ditto drug taking. Men and women can only behave in a civilised way if they are in control of their faculties. The culture of excessive drinking and drug taking is a sad situation for us all. For some it is a way of life, and the casual attitude to going out and getting thoroughly pissed, as if it is some kind of joke, is responsible for many tragedies, be they rape, car accidents, falls or whatever.

Now hang on. I think this thread is being hijacked by some mumsnet posters.

TheExMotherInLaw if you had taken the time to read through this thread you would see the 'cup of tea' analogy had already been posted.

I doubt very much if anyone on here would have anything but the deepest sympathy for the mumsnet posters who have shared their rape ordeals on the mumsnet thread. The many of the comments mumsnet posters find offensive would be offensive to many women, not just those affected by rape. However, this thread has been about the issue of consent, not the subject of rape as a whole and comments have been taken out of context - however offensive they might be to some.

If you are going to join this thread, keep it relevant and stop using emotional blackmail and being self righteous.

Until we (society) address the way we bring up young men and confront misogyny men will continue to rape because they can. Consent cannot be given by a woman who is not in control of her faculties no matter what the reason.....

I think a bit of lenience should be accepted given the nature of some people's experiences. Feelings run high during discussions like this, and no wonder. It's good to get back to remembering where the responsibility lies, but not surprising that the thread goes off in other directions.

Mumsnet posters were invited to come over and join the discussion and a few of the Gransnetters on here have posted on their thread. Perhaps some of them will stick around?

Emotional blackmail! Wtf is wrong with you?

For today, I give up. It's not surprising that some Mumsnetters feel angry. I hope they read all this thread and see that there is compassion for anyone who bas been raped, no matter what the circumstances. It would be good to know if anyone's view has shifted after following this debate.