Can a drunk woman give consent?

Why am I being accused of hijacking the thread just because I didn't read the whole thread? I've posted on here a few times over the last few weeks - am I suppose to serve a silent apprenticeship before posting?

DixieNormas Absolutely nothing and if you read my posts, I hope you will see I am not one of the posters who needs educating. Why don't you get off your high horse, stop swearing and join the discussion in a rational way?

whenim64 yes, it would be good to knows if anyone's view has shifted and I hope other gransnetters will rejoin the discussion.

TheExMotherInLaw your sarcasm doesn't do you no favours, especially as no one accused you of hijacking this thread.

However, the thread is not that long and is on a very contentious subject, so given you were weighing in because of what you'd read on mumsnet, why not make sure you were aware of what had actually been posted rather than relying on hearsay from mumsnet? Then you would have spotted that another mumsnetter already posted the whole piece on tea drinking.

Doh! no favours=any favours (that will teach me to try to be smart)

We are NOT animals. Our brains are much more highly developed than the brains of animals.

Women do not dress sexily because they are hoping to have sex. They dress that way because they think it looks good. Often it does. It's their choice and their business.

No man should have sex with a woman who is obviously drunk. If he tries and is successful, and is then accused of rape - serves him right. Plonker.

I have personal experience of rape. I just don't buy it that there is any excuse for a man to have sex with a woman/girl or another male, who is under the influence of drink or drugs.
Rape is not about sex per se, but a violent act with the intention of having power over women, intended to degrade and show utter contempt for them.
NB grooming took place in the 60's and 70's, although less organised than today. I was involved as an unhappy teenager from a good background and a grammar school.
I am a street pastor now, and we take care to look after young girls, scantily dressed with heels so high and so drunk they couldn't run away even if they knew what was happening. These young women are so drunk that taxi's often won't accept them. They may have got separated from their friends and lost their phones.
We often see young women slumped in doorways with one or more men around them, " helping". Yes I realise sometimes it might be genuine help, but I defy anyone not to be moved by their vulnerability and the danger they are in. Often, when we can rouse them to speak to us they tell us how their mothers would kill them if they knew what state they were in.
We see young people wearing stickers advertising cheap 'shots'. Free stretch limos take young people to bars.
However well brought up young people are, it only takes one fateful circumstance for the worst to happen.
My rapes put me in a psychiatric hospital for 2 years, hence 'anxiousgran'.

Oh,band Chrissie Hynde was talking rubbish.

Well I can swear as much as I like, you are not the thread police

I'm all for that dixienorma.

Seriously! You can't expect a discussion such as this to stay prim and proper.feelings run too high.

Are maybe I missed the email stating gransnet a swear free zone, who knows

Who the fuck told you that?

Drink reduces (or wipes out) people's ability to read the social (and sexual) cues that control our behaviour. A young person in particular who is still getting to grips with these whilst sober, does not have a chance when drunk. The higher brain functions are wiped out first and only the animal is left.

Good for you anxiousgran in your street pastor role; but how you can bear to watch these young people deliberately setting out to get "wasted" I do not know. So pointless, and so dangerous.

• I think it obvious that any woman who is so drunk that she doesn't know what she is doing, can't walk, can't stand up, can't talk coherently, doesn't know where she is, etc. cannot possibly give consent. In that case, a man having sex with her is committing rape.

• If she is less inebriated, then it is a slightly greyer area. Nevertheless, if she is capable of saying "no" and does say "no", it is still rape. If she is not capable of saying "no", then she is too drunk to consent.

• If there is the slightest reason to believe that she doesn't want to have sex with the man – she shoves him away, turns away from him, pulls her clothes together and so on, albeit with the lack of co-ordination resulting from excessive drinking – and he still persists, that is still rape.

I suspect that most women raped while they are drunk are too embarrassed and feel too guilty themselves to report the rape to the police. (Rape, after all, is the classic crime for which the victim feels guilt.) If they do, is their blood tested for alcohol? People have been prosecuted for driving over the legal limit the day after they have been imbibing so I would assume that the blood alcohol level of a woman claiming to have been raped as she was too drunk to consent to sex would provide a degree of evidence of her claim. If it isn't tested, why not?

I didn't say GN was a swear free zone, just that I didn't think the posts with swearing (and ranting) were helping at that time. I am sure you will have no trouble ignoring what I say.

I knew someone who was raped. She was out with a female friend. They met a man (lets call him Bob) who they both knew. He introduced them to his friend (we'll call him Fred) who was a stranger to both of them. They had a few drinks then went back to Bob's flat where they had both been before to watch a movie/listen to music/chat ...as you do on a night out. They drank a couple of bottles of wine and she began to feel off colour. Bob suggested she lay down in another room which she did. She fell asleep/passed out...she admitted she wasn't sure. However she was sure when she woke up with Fred penetrating her that she had not consented. She tried to push him off but he had her pinned down. She called for Bob and her friend but they had gone out for a take away. Fred had taken advantage of the situation.

After it was over she left asap and apart from me and a rape counsellor told no one. Why did a woman in her thirties not report Fred? Well Fred told her she'd been asking for it. . He said that no one would believe her because she'd been drinking. He told her that she'd allowed him to pull off her underwear...it wasn't torn...so no one would believe her if she cried rape. He told her that it was obvious she wanted it because of what she was wearing...a shortish skirt, a top and high heels.

She didn't think anyone would believe her and/or would think she'd brought it on herself as she'd been drinking and had worn a shortish skirt. Reading some of the posts on here, sadly, I think she was right.

This thread has strayed a long way from the question of whether a drunk woman can give consent. It is not about a child getting routinely raped by someone within the family, or any of the other ways in which abuse as a child is damaging for life, nor is it about women who get raped despite having done nothing to attract the wrong sort of attention and being very clear about their rejection of it.

Strong alcohol is readily available, and so, evidently, is sex.

My concern is for teenagers in general and the examples that they are being set. They are victims of advertising and social media. There has been much in the press about the levels of depression, low self-esteem, self-harm and anorexia, particularly among girls. They are under enormous peer-group pressure. Middle-class girls are also under pressure to excel at school. For many, childhood seems to be over by the time they are in junior school, aged 8.

Girls as young as 13 are being given contraceptives at school because 'they want to have sex', often without the knowledge of their parents. Do they really? Mumsnetters, do you know what your young are doing online? Do they switch off at night and sleep soundly? Many don't. Some will even have another phone that you know nothing about. The peer group is powerful, and many parents are unaware of what goes on. Cyberbullying is often in the news, but cyberbrainwashing doesn't get mentioned. I'm glad that we didn't have social media when my children were growing up, but now I have a granddaughter to worry about.

What about love? It's hardly been mentioned so far. Of course there are many clean-living individuals of all ages getting to know each other, finding what they have in common. More should be made of it.

The OP asks, “Should we be warning young girls to watch what they drink/ wear etc on an evening out or is that just limiting their freedom?”

The UK has the highest teenage birth and abortion rates in Western Europe.
Isn't this a cause for concern?

What about sexually transmitted diseases? Contraception has gone beyond the condom (probably won't have one ready), so there isn't even that protection.

Shouldn't we be protecting our youngsters by teaching them how to look after themselves? How to avoid situations that they may regret for the rest of their lives? How to say 'No'? How to stay in control of themselves? That there is more to life than sex and getting wasted? That self-control and self-respect bring their own rewards? That's liberating, not limiting. Younger children actually appreciate discipline and boundaries.

The blame culture and legal aid are fodder for the legal profession. I'm inundated with phone calls about fictitious accidents and PPI selling. Just waiting for rape to be added to the list.

Shouldn't we be teaching our boys that being drunk, flirtatious and wearing skimpy clothes isn't the same as saying, "I want sex." Why is it all put on the girl? If you go to the beach or swimming pool you will see girls wearing a lot less clothing but no one thinks they're offering sex. If men can control themselves in that situation then they can control themselves on a night out.

Rape exists all over the world and always has. It hasn't anything to do with what a woman wears. Dark Ages nuns were raped by Vikings. Slaves are often raped as they have no ownership of their bodies and their masters can do with them what they will. Women are often victims of rape to prove to their men that they are so weak they' can't even protect their wives and daughters. Women in burkhas were and still are being raped. Rape has nothing to do with what the woman wears or does but everything to do with power.

vampirequeen I agree completely with your post. The only person responsible for a rape is the perpetrator of the act NOT the victim.

I hope that those posters who think the blame game is a generational thing can see that it is not. Many older women have been feminists for more years than maybe we care to remember and have actively campaigned and marched for equality in all aspects of life including the right of a woman to wear what she likes without fear of being judged by others as 'easy' etc.

I am angry and disappointed that the pendulum appears to be swinging back when I see the resurgence of gender stereotyping in clothes/toys etc. and inevitably expectations. All power to the younger feminists taking on the baton with new energy but let's try not to be divided, there is greater power in unity.

Please note that, unless specified otherwise, my comments apply equally to boys and girls.

vampirequeen
"Rape exists all over the world and always has."
Yes, and it always will. You will never get a perfect world. We know that there are men at liberty who have committed sexual offences, and more who will. We know that different cultures view women and sex differently, and this is a multi-cultural society.

Penstemmon
"The only person responsible for a rape is the perpetrator of the act NOT the victim."
I agree. But isn't it better that it doesn't happen to you in the first place? If we're talking about rape on a night out, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and in the wrong condition can largely be avoided. Far worse is abuse in the home. FGM should be outlawed worldwide, but I don't suppose it will be.

There are responsible, caring, well brought up men and boys out there, not that you would think so from most of the posts on this thread.

I am not condoning rape under any circumstances. I think our boys and our girls should be informed, and without bias. Stay safe. Think for yourself. Respect other people. Parents must keep in closer contact with their children as they grow up, but too often they don't.

I thought that was obvious Oddsocks, but this issue tends to generate a hysterical response, lots of shouting down for anyone with the 'wrong' views, etc.

People do have to take responsibility for the situations they put themselves in - that's part of being a grown up. The hysterical response to that sort of comment is to accuse the person of being an 'apologist' for rape, yet the comment does not in any way excuse someone who has committed rape. Unfortunately we seem to have developed a society where everybody has rights without, apparently, any responsibility.

Bringing abuse of children into the conversation is quite ridiculous when the conversation is about what constitutes rape and what constitutes consent. I noted some comments elsewhere about an 11-year old being raped - whilst it is obviously a terrible thing, it has absolutely no relevance to the conversation.

As for the cup of tea analogy? How about if I make a cup of tea for someone just because I think they might like a cup of tea. I bring it into the room and show her the hot cup of tea that's ready for her. She says no, she doesn't fancy one right now, but I say 'go on, just a little sip, I've already made it for you', so she does and before you know it she's drunk the entire cup. It seemed like she quite enjoyed it at the time - she even asked for another. Maybe I'm a better tea maker than I thought! Anyway, as she wakes too early the morning after, desperate for the toilet, she regrets drinking your cup of tea and recalls that she did say no but then drank it anyway. You sort of forced that cup of tea on her. And the second one. Thank god you ran out of tea bags.

The original question was if a woman is drunk can she have given consent. Often consent is implied or assumed - events just develop and no young guy is going to stop and say 'hey, let's have a chat first so I can make sure you really are up for it, I'll come back tomorrow and see if you still fancy it' - there's a mood killing conversation. The chances are that he has had a few drinks as well - his judgement could equally be impaired. Mistakes might be made and it's part of growing up. No means no, obviously, and the vast majority of men will accept that. The idea that you should somehow obtain an unequivocal and resounding yes when the woman already appears to be a willing participant or she would have said no is rather strange and unrealistic.

Most people in this world are decent, yet there is a lot going on at present that presents men as the enemy that society must be protected from.

Flame suit on.

When I refer to girls and boys I am meaning teenagers. At 13, although they often look much older, they are children, yet a significant number get contraceptives and are sexually active with or without their parents knowing it. They are still so vulnerable as they set off to university.

I think it is important to keep connected with one's children, otherwise you'll never be able to help them through adolescence and into adulthood.