If it's good, make it better and overwhelm the bad.

We are onto our third apprentice roses and each time I have vowed I would never do it again and I am persuaded otherwise. Let's make things clear about taking on an apprentice in a small business such as ours:

1) They have invariably tried and failed to get into Nissan.
2) We pay their wages (and I don't believe in paying apprentice rates which are obscene)
3) they take a day and a half (sometimes 2) days off to go to college.
4) I pay employers NI for them, I buy their Safety equipment, boiler suits etc.
5) I pay their (hefty) fees. (If like our current apprentice they are over school leaving age when they start)

After all that when they are qualified they go off onto the rigs, Nissan or wherever earning more than we can afford to pay them.

I do think that government should talk to small business owners and I don't mean representatives of small business (such as FSB or chamber of commerce) I mean REAL people. They might learn a thing or two.

There needs to be a clause to say they must work for a certain length of time for the firm giving them the apprenticeship to "pay off their debts" Not working for nothing obviously, but paying back in skilled work what has been invested in them to give them those skills.

Yes Elegran that is something I have talked about with the college and those making money out of it running the schemes, many times. If say a small business was guaranteed that the newly qualified apprentice had to stay with them for a minimum period of time then many more small businesses might consider it. After all isn't it only fair that after we have forked out the money they should actually earn us something back in return?

Once upon a time (long ago) an apprentice, or his father, had to pay to be taken on for seven years, indentured, and taught a trade. He got no pay, just his keep and a bed, and he was expected to make himself useful around the house and run errands as well as learning how to do woodwork or make gloves or whatever. By the end of that time he could be doing work as good as his master, and he was qualified to work as a journeyman (paid by the day) for anyone who would employ him, then to set up a business on his own behalf.

Factory manufacturing put paid to that, and the novel concept that the apprentice had a right to be paid while he learnt.

But it does mean that handing on a skill that takes time to teach, not only to learn, actually costs the teacher while it benefits the learner. That isn't right, any more than that the learner should get nothing for the work he puts in.

Elegran your post of 12:30 was spot on. We need tv programmes about real business, about how a late payment from a customer can start the slide into bankruptcy, how the employer is usually the last person to be paid, the amount of time that is spent doing administration for HMRC, etc. These stupid and nasty programmes such as The Apprentice and Dragons Den are not typical of the day to day running of a business. It is interesting what gillybob said about apprenticeships; although I certainly do not wish to see any exploitative schemes, I do think that the schemes run by some of the major hairdressers are fair. The student/apprentice has to pay a deposit of several thousand pounds which is then refunded in stages as they work and qualify. After all, the student gets the training and the kudos of being trained by a high street name,most of them will likely use that kudos to better their career. I think this should apply to those studying medicine; there should be some kind of obligation to work a certain number of years within the NHS before leaving the country for example. We should encorage manufacturing and design; we are good at this, and stop importing so much dangerous inferior rubbish from China.

I would like to see a wider understanding of small businesses. We are subject to the same rules and regulations as big business but obviously don't have the luxury of "spare" manpower to apply them. I agree Elegran that programs such as dragons den and the apprentice do nothing to help, in fact they probably only fuel the idea that if you are in business you are some kind of Alan Sugar and rich beyond your wildest dreams. Yes GillT57!there should be some kind of "pay back" incentive to small businesses which would surely encourage more of them to take a chance on an apprentice.

I havent got time to even read the thread properly, so just going to effectively post and run.

Business needs to be at the heart of the country and government. Small business and medium business.
Not sure about those businesses that are big. They seem to have got somewhat too big for their boots, some of them, and seem to have power over MPs and governments that they should not have in my opinion.

There is a huge, and I mean huge amount of talent of all types that is lost between schools and the workplace.
Careers advice, in my opinion, is a joke.

We have lost a lot of manufactoring. Not sure when or if it is coming back to the levels it was. [inance[hollow laugh] made up[again hollow laugh] for some it.
But sorry, I do think that that is why wages have become effectively lower and will remain so for I dont know how long.
We are not what we were back in the 60s and 70s and perhaps early 80s. But in our hearts we still think and spend, that is personally and collectively as a country, like we think we are.

Many other countries have somewhat caught us up.

Manufacturing will never be at high levels here, but we could try and make items that are of high quality and are what people want.

Sadly it's all about the price roses which is the reason we need to be very careful how high we make the "minimum" wage. China, India and the likes do not have anywhere near the same H&S /employment law/ employment tax as we do in this country which prices the UK out, on so many levels. If Mr or mrs Average in the UK were prepared to stick their neck out and only buy British then that would be fine, but when it comes to the crunch it is (sadly) all about the price.

I wonder how many grans or partners are working voluntarily for local community groups? An enormous amount of free expertise is important in this sector. The Government should support these groups to improve local employment opportunities, enhance local cohesion and increase facilities for all members of the local communities.

How about supporting local investment in renewable energy projects?
With the wide range of voluntary groups working hard for these, we could replace the imported coal (more than half of what our power stations burn!) and increase self-sufficiency.

Our local group has won awards for investing in solar panels for over 300 council house tenants. This has provided free electricity for vulnerable people and reduced their energy bills, created local employment opportunities, reduced the coal use and the carbon footprint and allowed grandparents to put money into secure investments for grandchildren with better returns than the banks can offer. All this has depended on a dozen local citizens and reduced fees / free work put in by local firms e.g. solicitors, accountants, some 13,500 hours altogether (we were surprised when we eventually added it up!).

I should think this sort of enterprise is worthy of support by our taxes and must be better than importing coal.

We must not try and compete with the likes of China, gillybob, as you say,
But not everyone in Britain is poor ( far from it!) and niche manufacturing, in a small way can work well. Hotter shoes for example, bespoke woodwork/ furniture, the Turtle Mat company, and so on.

I grew up in a small business- the corner shop. Most of my family had small businesses- shops and pubs. I chose not to follow in their footsteps and became a teacher. The reasons being I wanted to do something that had another purpose besides making money and I didn't want me and my children to have a fractured life where someone was always working. I admire anyone who can run a business. And I am a Corbyn supporter. I don't think that is strange. I have noticed that the poorer main streets in my town have numerous privately owned cafes whilst the nearby affluent High Street is all Costas and Starbucks. Perhaps it is something to do with the high business rates charged here.

Some of what you say is the very reason why manufacturing in the UK is in decline trisher. I appreciate that we need teachers, of course we do, but where does everyone think the money comes from to pay our teachers? You seem to be of the assumption that everyone running a business is making loads of money? Our purpose is to make a living for ourselves and our staff and I would hazard a guess that mine and my DH's salary combined would be less than that of the average teacher.

No disrespect but anyone could be a shopkeeper. You buy things at one price and sell them on for more.

But have you ever wondered what we would do if everyone leaving school decided against becoming an Engineer, a mechanic or a joiner? If they all suddenly decided to "work in the public sector". There would be no public sector.

I am not a Corbyn supporter (although I was a member of the Labour Party for many years) as I fear he is totally geared up towards the public sector and dead against private enterprise and businesses, the very people who generate the wealth in the country.

Elegran, I couldn't agree more. Education in all spheres has to be the way forward but not by wasting 3 or 4 years swanning about a 'university' that can't guarantee to produce work-worthy graduates. And don't start me on the 'gap' year experience(s).Probably just jealous 'cos our generation didn't have the same opportunities.

Corbyn is not against private enterprise he is in favour of public utilities and services such as the railways being publicly owned and with good reason. But this thread isn't about this. As to "anyone could be a shopkeeper" true- but they are small businesses and that is what this thread is about.gillybob Your logic about "What if everybody leaving..." is so flawed. Exactly the same argument could be used in reverse- "What if no-one decided to be a teacher/work in the public sector? Where would the engineers come from and who would care for them when they were ill?"
When I went into teaching many years ago it was seen as public service and the wages were not huge. Which is what I meant when I said I didn't just want to make money. Nothing to do with amounts earned really more a sense of vocation.
Interestingly there are programmes now which try to interest children in business and enterprise. The children are given a set amount of money and asked to use it to make more. Some of them do very well.

That is the kind of thing that is needed - making people think about the planning that is needed to earn a living in business. It is not all about flashy presentations to dragons, or beating other hopefuls at who can boast loudest. It is about calculating margins and being consistent with quality and good service. It is about keeping employees busy and fulfilled at their work, too.

The most successful item I saw in the Apprentice series was the pie shop. they decided on a good product, restricted the variations to a manageable number without wasting ingredients, had it made to high standards, named it imaginatively, then served it up efficiently and in a friendly manner at reasonable prices to appreciative customers.

The problem is that the education system seems to be loaded against those who would make good joiners, plumbers, mechanics, bricklayers and other skilled manual trades. We need to put more emphasis on vocational education and stop trying to shove everyone towards university. We need to encourage more young women as well as men into engineering and sciences (and yes, I know that these necessitate a university degree). And we need to plug the black hole into which we consign those who think education is a waste of time and leave, without even basic literacy and social skills in some cases, to spend their lives workless and without prospects. They are a drain on the country and a shame to themselves.

Well we made a start today, my 9yr old DGS had his first welding lesson. He loved it.

That's the way, Petra start 'em early!

There is a world of difference between small businesses and the huge multinationals who are floated on the stock exchange and become pawns of their share holders.

The small businesses really need completely different treatment by the government for support with taxation, subsidies etc.

It seems to me that all the power is with the big companies.
That is about all I know about business.
I don't envy you Gillybob I reckon you must spend a lot of time between a rock and a hard place.

All the big businesses started small. How can we inspire/enthuse youngsters into starting their own? Of course some have just 'got it'. eg my SIL started as a schoolboy selling black bags. Now a good going businessman in another field altogether. Key thing is a clear understanding where money actually comes from and how to husband resources. Elegran right as usual -education education education!