Turkey shoots down Russian fighter, scary times.

I haven't read all the responses but on the news today they said one pilot was alive and well, and the other was shot while parachuting from the plane.

Cruel and unnecessary.

I really agree, seagazer. It's becoming a very scary world and I'm worried for my children and grandchildren.... and a little bit for me too.

There is an issue that has not been addressed so far I believe in this thread regarding the Russian flight path . It was shot down whilst flying over Turkish territory and the flight path it took whilst grounding caused it to crash in Syrian territory.. It was NOT flying in the direction of IS held territory it was flying TOWARDS anti Assad rebel held territory.

There was another issue that has not been addressed regarding the Russian plane . Russia has been bombing the anti Assad rebels and as far as they were concerned it was another Russian bomber heading their way to do so again. That is obvious as it was NOT heading toward IS held territory which is in the totally opposite direction.

Now we know 1 pilot is alive, the other may or may not have been killed by those on the ground or it may turn out he died as a result of the crash.

If as Russia has said it is bombing only IS held territory, it's widely known this is rubbish, why would the Russian plane be near the Turkish border as it would have not required it to take that flight path and most certainly it would have been heading with the anti Assad rebels behind it not in front of the plane as obviously happened.

My thoughts exactly POGS

I thought the Russians are bombing all rebels, regardless of which side those rebels are on. Didn't that Russian bloke say "a terrorist is a terrorist"?
They just want to wipe out all rebels and give it back to Assad.

No need to have shot the pilots. They should have been taken prisoner. But I guess the Geneva Convention is unlikely to mean much to them.

Patrick Cockburn, who has for many years been employed as Middle East correspondent for the Financial Times and now The Independent and who has won many prizes for his journalism and books on the Middle East, wrote an article in The I today.

In it he states:

"..... Yet the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, was this week claiming that our allies on the grounds are going to be 'moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting ISIS.

"He did not identify these elusive moderates, but the Syrian armed opposition is dominated by three extreme Islamic fundamentalist groups, of which the most powerful is ISIS, followed by the al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham, a hard-line Sunni movement."

That seems to support what the Russians are saying - that the vast majority of anti-Assad fighters belong to groups broadly in sympathy with the aims of ISIS.

I don't think it's a good idea for Russia or anyone else to be dropping bombs on Syrian towns and cities because it is too easy for mistakes or bad decisions to be made - as we have seen with the bombing of the Medicine sans Frontiers hospital in Afghanistan. And anyway I find it difficult to believe that such bombing can take place without civilians being hurt or killed - and further enemies being made.

As more people are starting to say, what should be stopped is the flow of money, oil and weapons between ISIS and whichever countries are either buying their oil or supplying them with weapons and armoured vehicles. There have been some reports that Russia has attacked ISIL-held oil installations and if it's true that seems to me to be a more effective way of shutting them down.

Eloethen

You quite rightly raise the point , the flow of finance, oil and weapons to IS should be stopped. Nobody has ever said or thought differently in any discussion/debate I have watched or heard. Total sense. Finding the trail of IS finance is a minefield and also the availability of weapons.

My belief is Russia AND the US led coalition have bombed oil refineries in Syria. Not the UK as we cannot cross the border into Syria. So this is being done, not by us so far.

The article you have put forward gives a distinct impression that Fallon is using the term 'moderate opposition forces' but then goes on to mention these groups are predominently IS, All Nusra and Ahrar al Sham.

Did Patrick Cockburn in his article mention the likes of the Peshmurga, YPG, the Syrian Turkmen rebels, the more recent Syrian Democratic Force.

Time the UN took matters in hand

The UN has 'finally' passed a resolution to invoke action against Islamic State. There was a 'unanymous' vote taken last week which tells all nations to 'TAKE ALL NECCESSARY MEASURES' to fight against IS.

This could have happened years ago but Russia and China backed Assad against the Syrian peoples want of democracy and continually vetoed any move by the other UN countries to tackle IS in Syria. We all know that Russia has moved position since IS downed their plane in Egypt. There is a realisation that IS is at war with everybody and his dog that does not believe in the Caliphate/Islamic State and that includes Russia .

Russia is two faced. It is now bombing IS positions and infrastructure in Syria but it still has it's other head facing anti Assad rebels and bombing them also, hence the downing of the Russian fighter plane by Turkey downed it on route towards anti Assad rebel held territory NOT IS held territory , which is huge.

We're it not for the sacrifices and fierce fighting of the Kurdish Peshmurga there would be no effective ground force to hold IS in check. I often wonder, like you POGS why they do not get the credit and recognition they deserve.

Many people are unaware of the Peshmurga.

But they might know of the peshmerga!!

Female Pedhmerga apparently if killed by a woman then the jihadists don't go to heaven and get their 73 virgins but straight to hell!

Let's hear it for the women

Ignore spelling - iPad sulking!

The Peshmurga, men and women are the real unsung heroes in this awful business. They deserve our unequivocal support and recognition, and someone should be acknowledging this. I think things are easier on the ground for them since airstrikes and the supply of more sophisticated weaponry, but even so, I for one salute these brave soldiers.

POGS Yes, he says:

"There are other forces involved in Syria and Iraq. The Syrian Kurds have become the US air force's favourite ally over the past year and have maybe 25,000 well-organised fighters. The Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga have recaptured Sinjar in an attack supported by US air raids .."

Nevertheless, the main thrust of the article was that the most powerful groups that are being described as "moderate" may not be necessarily be seen by all to fit that description.

The Mail Online in April 2015 said that men from the west are teaming up with Kurdish forces to fight ISIS:

"Dozens of western fighters have taken up arms in the battle to defeat ISIS. Many are former American and British servicemen. The majority of western fighters have joined the Kurdish People's Protection Unit in Syria or the Peshmerga in Iraq."

Apparently, to protect their identities and build loyalty among the group, the westerners all adopt Kurdish "nom de guerres" while fighting alongside local forces.

Middle East Eye says:

"Christian born fighters are deserting the Kurdish YPG in Syria because they are "damn Reds" ..... they are joining other militias ...... many are joining a Christian militia Dwekh Nawsha. the YPG is linked to the Kurdish Workers Party, a Marxist-Leninist group. ISIS fighters call them "commies and atheists".

According to BBC News 24 November:

"Reports say the Syrian Turkmen brigades work with other opposition armed groups in Northern Latakia countryside, including the FSA, the al-Qaeda-affiliated Nusra Front and the Islamist Ahrar al-Sham.".

So it can be seen that the rebel groups have a wide range of political and religious affiliations.

Anya

Eloerthan

Thank you.

To me your first post now read alongside your second post now gives a more balanced overview.

The Daily Mail comment you post re 'men from the west ' could read two ways. Does it mean men from the west as in European for example or men from the west as in the anti Assad rebels who are occupying territory in the west of Syria?

It is obviously the case that there are so many factions throughout the Arab world and even they splinter off into newly formed groups. That has been the way for ever, however the most relative of course for todays war being the formation in 1999 of Jama At All Tawhid Wall Jihad and it's alliance with Al Qaeda and the eventual formation of Islamic State.

One thing we can all agree on it's a b----y mess and the rise of Islamic State is now so huge only Unity from all countries has a cat in hells chance of stopping it.

The Online article has several photographs and includes this commentary:

"In one shot a 67-year-old Canadian fighter who goes by the name Heval Zinar and a 40-year-old British man nicknamed Heval Cudi are seen sparring and play fighting with one another under the blazing northern Syrian sun." .......

"In another shot reminiscent of something from the First World War, a 21-year old from the UK known as Hewal Sores and a American calling himself Hewal Agir are seen sitting in a muddy trench with their rifles in the hands as they guard a military checkpoint."

"Another photograph shows a 38-year-old American national calling himself Hewal Cekdar wearing a khaki T-shirt emblazoned with the word 'Infidel' in both English and Arabic".

I must say, I'm surprised at Britons, Canadians and Americans being involved in unofficial groups such as this. I thought this country at least disapproved of people going out to Syria to fight? Who is paying them? Are they, in effect, mercenaries?

There have always been men who just want to be involved in conflicts. Remember the French Foreign Legion?

I agree POGS re your comment that it's a bloody mess. I too think that there should be unity amongst countries that oppose ISIS but I'm hoping that, instead of smashing Syria to smithereens, they use more strategic methods by stopping the production, flow and sale of oil. And those countries which purport to oppose ISIS but which are covertly supporting it, must be economically, politically and diplomatically ostracised.

Eloethan

It's not just men/women/families from The UK, Canada, USA who are joining IS , most countries have this problem to be fair.

If you didn't catch it try and watch the recent Channel 4 program investigation Women Who Support IS. It held not one jot of a surprise for me but it follows a very brave young Muslim woman who infiltrated female supporters of IS in London. We should all be very concerned and take our heads out of the sand as to their intention to create a caliphate and destroy every aspect of our way of life.

just to say: Nazis - Saudis. it is a simple plural, so there is NO NEED FOR AN APOSTROPHE, please. Sorry to be a pedant, but I can't help noticing, and groaning...
apart from that, I agree with the sentiments :-)

Norty Florentine !

hahaha...!