Winners and Losers

There is a theory often implied on these threads that ALL who don't condemn every Conservative move are automatically evil. That is the equivalent of Letwin's stupid comment of thirty years ago (which he was pulled up on and apologised for, but it will never be forgotten).

Pots/kettles. If he was in the wrong, then those who have the same attitude from the opposite direction are also in the wrong.

Being concerned for people in poverty, the disabled, the rise in suicides in the mentally ill, the rise in homeless young people is not being a rabid left wing extremist , it is caring for the suffering of the vulnerable

As for Letwin and his views that the poor are a lower class , no matter that he said it in the eighties,he said it and believes it, he is a top advisor to the present government which is at least alarming, at most terrifying because it means the poor can be dismissed so easily , not forgetting the views of George Young that the homeless are those he steps over when leaving thr opera .

One has to be a rabid left wing extremist to find these views vile /evil ?

No way but it says much if those who dismiss them - rabid right wing extremists

Rubbish Elegran There is no logic in what you say
1. someone did something bad
2. someone criticises them vehemently for doing a bad thing
3 therefore the critic is just as bad as the original wrong-doer

There are no rabid extremists on this forum. There are not even any non-rabid extremists. I know someone who holds extreme left views and, trust me, she makes Corbyn and those who support him look middle of the road.

I think our current government if further to the right than any UK government in my lifetime. There is a great deal of evidence in the way they are enacting legislation. There are a number of apologists for this government on this thread. However they do not generally raise the standard of debate.

Hitler started off running a democracy - the rights of the German people did not disappear overnight. This has happened when dictators came to power in many countries. We cannot be complacent about democracy and the rights and privileges that it brings.

I for one would welcome a higher level of debate on here from those who support the current government.

I am not dismissing or approving those comments or elevating Letwin to a status as a blessed and wise advisor, I am objecting to similar comments which are just as generalised in their blanket view of one section of society as a homogenous and wicked mass. That is equally as vile.

What is sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose. Those who don't like arrogant remarks should not copy them by being equally insulting in their turn.

Jess, there is no incentive to support or even assess the current government when the thread is dominated by vitriol. Words like evil should not be employed. They lead to civil war.

Terms like mistaken, short-sighted, short-termist, badly advised, and dozens of other criticisms which I am sure could be validly produced would be discussable. Evil and deliberate acts of hatred are not concepts which can be discussed They can only be thrown as weapons and followed by stronger weapons and eventually a revolution.t

There will inevitably be an election in due course, in which the current government will either be returned or defeated. If it is defeated the pendulum will swing the other way.

Party politics are a curse on the nation and just lead to tennis matches with the country as the ball. Personal principles, serious thought and individual contributions are what democracy is supposed to be about, not polarised name-calling, from anyone.

Elegran, can you please explain the meaning of your comments at 12.32.
Some of those words are not known to me. Not even sure if they are in my dictionary.

Which words in particular, dj ? Though I am sure they could be found by a bit of Googling.

Badly advised? Was the KKK badly advised when they declared black people as lesser human beings? No. They believed it

Letwin said it, he did so when giving advice not flipping taking advice

drawn as though sitting cackling with glee
which reminded me that earlier today I was thinking that some threads on GN remind me of the Scottish Play, Act 1, Scene 1.

it is very difficult to keep defending the indefensible I suppose

I don't think anyone is defending the indefensible, I think it is more a discussion which should be on a Pedants' Corner thread - the definition of a word and any one person's interpretation of it.

The press often use the word "evil" to describe criminals. I disapprove as it is a simplistic analysis of why someone commits a horrible crime - were they mentally ill? on drugs? the product of a highly abusive childhood? - evil in this case is a lazy word that journalists trot out.
When someone in a powerful position, who has had every benefit of education and wealth deliberately attacks the weak and vulnerable who have none of his advantages - why not call that evil

So your description of, for example, Fred West, who had an abusive childhood, would not be that he was 'evil' - but that a person such as Letwin, over-privileged, arrogant, pompous, even stupid, is described by you as 'evil'.

That is too puzzling for my feeble brain.

What do you suggest instead of party politics, elegran?
Just let the Tories continue?
They are gerrymandering for all they are worth to stay in charge for another five years. The only long-term plan they have is for their own amusement.

to think that Letwin's views are evil.
a slight nuance there, between saying 'Letwin's views are evil and that the man himself is evil.

This was abandoned in the 80s when Thatcher promoted the grab-what -you-can society.
And continued and promoted with such great enthusiasm by Blair and his grab-a-lot wife (the champion of 'supermarket challenge').

There is a theory often implied on these threads that ALL who don't condemn every Conservative move are automatically evil. That is the equivalent of Letwin's stupid comment of thirty years ago (which he was pulled up on and apologised for, but it will never be forgotten).

That just about summarises it, doesn't it, an ill-thought out and stupid comment from thirty years ago which will follow him around whatever he says or does in future, just like Jeremy's Corbyn's invitation to IRA terrorists, which is going to follow him wherever he goes now (a fact brought up by life-long Labour supporters, not just 'rabid right-wing Tories).

I for one would welcome a higher level of debate on here from those who support the current government.

Perhaps there is another site that would suit you better JessM, where there are more people on the extreme right with whom you can have a good debate. Obviously, no-one on here is sufficiently right-wing to wish to do so.

Some of those words are not known to me. Not even sure if they are in my dictionary. I had to look it up, too, djen

You see, JessM, not everyone wants a higher level of debate, some of us are happy with the level of discussion we can achieve on here

Right wingers do not seem to want to debate is, I think, what JessM is implying.
I imagine she does go on other sites, just like you and I, roseq.

I don't go on any other sites - sad though it may be, this is my view of life djen
(apart from RL that is).

You are cleverer than I am, roseq, because I had to look up more than one word.

And, not being a rabid rightwinger I will retire.
ttfn

Well, it was more than one word, but they were all together!

That explains why I have lots of links that you do not, roseq. I can direct you to some very interesting websites, to broaden your outlook, if you want.
In fact, I probably do all the time. Do you not look at any of the links? That's very strong-willed of you.

Yes, I think I said earlier (or was it on another thread?) that I do look at some links.
Don't worry about me, DB broadens my outlook a lot too.

Elegran said I am objecting to similar comments which are just as generalised in their blanket view of one section of society as a homogenous and wicked mass I don't see any comments that categorise whole sections of society as wicked. Comments have been aimed at very specific targets - e.g. Politicians, Extremists on the right and left. I have no ill-feeling for those who support any political party, either as activists or as 'once ever five years' voters. Individuals make their own choices, generally based mainly on what they perceive to be the best option for themselves and their families, with perhaps a nod to what is best for the wider community. What I do regret and find very frustrating, is that these choices are inevitably informed by the information, misinformation, propaganda and downright, deliberate lies that are presented to the public, through a filter created by a biased media with its own agendas.

Elsewhere you talk of civil war/revolution as if that would be the worst evil of all. Personally, I think it is inevitable that something of the sort is inevitable and I hope that, now in the 21st Century, it can happen peacefully, without recourse to violence. Certainly something has to change. We cannot continue with a society that is manifestly unfair in terms of wealth, opportunity, access to health services, etc. to the vast majority, while a small elite continues to wield all the power and drain this country's resources for their own short-term gain.

Did I really read DJ offering to help broaden someone's outlook ???

Oh yes, I have just realised why there is no debate on here from the hard right-wingers - there actually aren't any!

That doesn't mean that the thread winners are those who believe that all Conservatives are evil - it just means that the middle-of-the-roaders would rather leave them to fulminate alone.

Good plan.