How will you vote in the EU referendum?

Like this by Matthew Syed:

"I started off leaning towards the In camp in the EU debate, but have found myself shifting the other way, in part because of the arguments mounted on these pages [he's referring to the Times nespaper].
What seems clear is that this is a complex debate, with plausible arguments on both sides. That’s why I can understand Boris Johnson’s procrastination for so long (assuming he was weighing the arguments rather than assessing his future leadership campaign).
What I can’t fathom, though, is how some people are so utterly certain, one way or the other; who see disaster (or bliss) hinging on the vote; who even question the rationality of anyone who disagrees with them. Isn’t this a bit extreme?
My growing sense is that those who think the debate is a no-brainer are not using their brains nearly enough."

Has a point.

Did anyone hear Lord Lawson on Radio 4 news?
Interesting. He said that our trade agreements with other countries in the EU are OUR agreements, nothing to do with the EU.

OUT, most definitely. The EU is not fit for purpose. We pay BILLIONS into the EU each year. Freedom of movement and direction from Brussels? How can that be good? Isn't immigration control a key point? This expensive 'club' we are in isn't looking out for our interests.

The UK is strong, powerful and have our own leverage, which we should use. Why does it make sense to subsidise (for life?) those unskilled people who come into Europe, and who will do so for the years to come whilst we retain the open door policy, yet make it difficult for professionals outside the UK to come into the country? It's economic madness, yet we have to abide by it.

The scaremongering stories about what might happen if we leave are becoming absurd! We have a globally competitive environment, yet economists inside Europe cling onto scare stories that we need each other, because of their own vested interests. We've stood alone before, quite successfully.We have a thriving economy and we should be allowed to control our own affairs. 80% of British laws are decided in Brussels. Policy has in years before been about pursuing the national interest for your own citizens and it should be reinstated.

We have shared common interests with ALL our allies on the international scene. That won't change. Japan, the US, Singapore etc are self-governing nations. The world market is huge. We'll become part of the global market.

We are now in a highly protectionist EU organisation. Should we leave, free trade will be a HUGE gain for us. We are sold so much stuff at INFLATED prices by being in the European Union. We have to pay so many tariffs, many of which which subdue our economy. It's about their VESTED interests, and the European gravy train, not about the national interest. Europe needs us more than we need the organisation. The UK is a HUGE player. We need a more dynamic future. Right now, in the EU we are in shackles. Being in the EU restricts us from joining global markets.

It's in our interests to have free trade. We'll dictate prices and it could give us a huge drop in the cost of living here. The EU so dependent on our market. We don't get the best price for our exports within Europe. The regulations we have to abide by, decided by 'the club' are not in line with free market principles. The costs to us are very large.

Huge nations, Russia, China and the USA don't have trade deals yet their exports deals are economically successful. We'll have trade agreements with Europe as an add-on, on our terms.

One wonders what sort of deal best suited to the UK situation Cameron is going to broker. I don't think there is one.

We will not lose European alliances, and if Brexit is successful, other countries will follow. We are being regulated to death by Brussels. The EU is fast becoming an expensive, restrictive, crumbling farce and I for one am very glad we are having this discussion.

We're not strong on our own. Any more than Australia is strong, for instance or Canada.
Bags I think for those living in "the provinces" it is a complete "no brainer" as we will lose so much EU funding of the vote is to leave.

The tangible benefits of being in the EU are considerable. Being in the position of Norway (still have to pay in, still have to accept free movement of labour, still have to follow the rules if they want to trade with the EU - but have no say at all in the rules) is the best we can hope for.
For those who are still wondering which way to vote I recommend this piece by the Editor of the Economist (a woman!) done for R4Today last Friday www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03kqydg

Ooops...second para should read "professionals *outside the EU*"

As for EU funding, we pay for more IN (billions) than we get back in subsidies etc.

There's been a lot of scaremongering already and it will get worse.

I really don't believe if we leave it'll increase our chances of going to war with Germany or France or any other neighbour and since the EEC has no united army it's a rather toothless beast (as has been demonstrated with the present Syrian refugee problem). Probably a good thing as by the time all the committees and individual nation states had made any sort of decision we'll have been overrun (see Syrian refugee problem!)

Personally I was very concerned about the economy and our trade agreements until I heard the discussion on Radio 4 this lunchtime when was made perfectly clear that the trade agreements made with other world nations by the EU were made on behalf of every member state and signed by each state individually. The EU cannot legally make agreements as a whole entity. Therefore if we leave Europe all trade agreements will stand - unless the UK chooses to change them.

The more I hear the fewer reasons I can see for staying in.

We will not be in the same position as Norway.

Why do you think we'll lose European trade if we leave? Of course we won't.

We'll trade successfully with the rest of the world, on our terms, and with Europe too, also on our terms.

European concerns NEED us, far more than we need them. The EU is controlling prices. See my post, above about the subsidies, tariffs and regulations we presently have to abide by as members of the EU.

Excellent piece, JessM.
The way I see it is that we are in the EU.
It's those who want to leave who have to prove to us that we'd be better out. Nobody can say for certain, and from what I've read, it will take up to ten years for all the disparate trade agreements to be sorted out satisfactorily.
Anyway, that does not matter to the majority of us. We buy goods at whatever price they are offered. If goods cost too much, we do not buy them.
What is important to me is that I am not going to tell my European family that years of arguing over whether it's good or bad to be in Europe is more important than they are.
So yes, It's a no-brainer.

Day6, why do you say that Europe needs us more than we need them?
We export 40% of our goods to the EU.
We import 7% from the EU.

durhamjen - yes, our trade agreements are within the EU, and both imports and exports are regulated by European rulings/prices. It's about control and lack of freedom to negotiate.

From my post above, which perhaps you didn't read?

"We are now in a highly protectionist EU organisation. Should we leave, free trade will be a HUGE gain for us. We are sold so much stuff (imports) at INFLATED prices by being in the European Union. We have to pay so many tariffs, many of which which subdue our economy. It's about their VESTED interests, and the European gravy train, not about the national interest. Europe needs us more than we need the organisation. The UK is a HUGE player. We need a more dynamic future. Right now, in the EU we are in shackles. Being in the EU restricts us from joining (more lucrative) global markets. "

And as I also mentioned, anyone who thinks breaking with the EU organisation means we'll lose business must be barking. Our economy is thriving and it wouldn't follow that European countries wouldn't want to deal with us in future. If we broke away we'd create deals with Europe on our terms, we'd trade with Europe on our terms.

The small pond we now play in has become polluted, if you like. Restrictions, tariffs and rulings from Brussels, as well as the VAST sums we have to pay in (billions!) are fast becoming a stranglehold on our economy. It's only going to get worse.

Reading today's news it would seem that Angela Merkel (whom I admire) will soon be out of office. The economies of so many of our European buddies are struggling. That's a sinking ship I don't want to go down with, or have to patch up/support at huge costs to ourselves.

We need to get out. The European Union is dying on its feet.

I think the choices we have are to prop it up and stay, or leave and watch it crumble completely as other European countries consider their options.

There are very few advantages of being in Europe right now as I see it. There is unrest in Sweden, Italy, Germany, Greece and eastern European countries because of open door policies and lack of border controls.

In terms of business and employment we'd compete very well and more profitably in global markets. The EU is a restrictive and expensive club. As for allies, we will not lose our western and European alliances/friendships ever, in terms of military strength, common cultural features or presence on the world stage.

I do think if we leave, other countries will do the same. The death knell is sounding for the EU and if we remain, we splinter with it, endure the economic chaos and pay the price.

Half my family are European; Spanish, Norwegian, Danish, even Hungarian.

Why should I tell them that finance is more important than they are?
I guess you do not have any Europeans in your family.
Except we all are at the moment.

I guess you do not have any Europeans in your family

And you are basing this on what exactly, durhamjen?

AIBU to find this a patronising and an arrogant assumption?

Heaven knows I carry no candle for Boris Johnson but he has to have the most colourful European background of any MP especially in the LEAVE lobby! There's the Turkish great grandfather, the de Peffels (minor French aristocracy ) and German aristocracy further back.

Whether a poster has European relatives or not shouldn't be biasing their opinion for or against leaving the EU.

ALL my family are European. All British too, so far as I know. Oh no! Hang on. I've got some North American relatives too now.

Anyway, the point is that Britain is part of Europe. Not mainland Europe, admittedly (not since the sea rose over the continental shelf between us and mainland Europe), but still Europe.

So claiming more Europeanness than other Brits is a bit daft.

Day6. Thank you for an Excellant post. All these trade agreements, would that be why the government don't want the leave campaign to have access to certain papers?

Well, I don't think it's an excellent post petra and the leave campaign has the same access to information as the stay campaign, so don't rely on the Daily Mail if you want accurate information.

It's quite clear Day6 has not bothered to read the rest of this thread, instead preferring to write an essay full of incorrect information and asking questions, as if it's the first time they've been mentioned on this thread. It's actually rather insulting.

When I read the first post by Day6, I honestly thought why should I bother picking the post apart for inaccuracies and sweeping statements? It's clear from the tone of the very first post that Day6 has made up their mind and the truth will make no difference.

Well said WilmaK.

Sorry Wilma but think Day6 has made some excellent posts, and am taken aback by your reaction!
We all have our views, and are not going to be swayed by anyone on here, but that doesn't mean their their posts are poor, simply because we disagree.

thatbags I liked the Matthew Syed piece.

And what's the Daily Mail got to do with it? I haven't seen Day6 referring to any article or statistics from it.

I do hope the referendum debate isn't going to descend into mud-slinging and personal insults like the General Election discussions did...

I hope not too.