Mild Female Genital Mutilation

I'm trying to respond Terri but keep receiving 'Message is invalid'

"Mild female genital alteration" - a contradiction in terms. I can see nothing mild about it and we should not let our fear of being branded racist prevent us from saying so. I am happy to stand up and say that I also object to the religious circumcision of baby boys - I have no idea how this is still legal in our supposedly civilized country.

As Luckygirl says it is a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as a little bit mutilated! Mutilation is mutilation and the only other word for it is unacceptable!

We are in grave danger of descending into the dark ages and far worse if we don't stand up against this sort of barbarism and the many other insidious things which are being swept under the carpet for fear of accusations of discrimination of some sort or another.

It is absolutely right that we all have to stand up and be counted and take the time to complain and bring things to the attention of the public. We must support those who are trying to stamp out these evil practices so that they can do their duty/work without fear.

It's too late. It's too wide spread here and it's only going to get worse.
We could have 10s of 1,000s of people coming to this country from cultures that think this mutilation is normal.
How many prosecutions have we had, none. That's says it all.

Did anyone else hear the afternoon play on radio4?

When I read about this for the first time yesterday, I found it horrific that doctors in America in a roundabout way sanction something that is so fundamentally wrong, it's the thin end of the wedge as far as I'm concerned. There are a lot of very strident voices around today about gender issues generally, Germaine Greer was recently denied a platform for her views on the subject, ironic given the trail blazer that she was. Conversely on an insidious practice that is gradually becoming accepted such as fgm, along with the other "no go area" Asian grooming there is a deafening silence.

It is not racist to state 'Our laws say X, Y and Z and those laws must be followed by everyone in this country."

What is this "mild mutilation" a euphemism for? I am thinking maybe they are referring to removing the clitoris rather than cutting off the labia and sewing the wound almost completely closed? Oh that's not so bad then is it.

Not so long ago it was considered essential to mutilate the feet of Chinese girl-children? Would people be acting as apologists for this cultural practice if it was still going on?

Galen. Yes, I heard it. Very well done, but very disturbing. Unfortunately it didn't tell me anything I didn't know.
ALL girl children should be examined when they come back from Somalia and Nigeria in particular.

I too agree that there is no such thing as "mild" female genital mutilation and it should not be accepted in any form at all. I also agree that circumcision of male infants is just as repugnant and should be made illegal.

So far as the scandals in Rotherham and Rochdale are concerned, these people were gangsters involved in all sorts of criminal activities, including drug running and prostitution. In the most recent case, two of the people convicted of procuring girls for prostitution were white women. There is no evidence that the police didn't intervene because of a sensitivity to "ethnic" considerations (though there was evidence that some members of social services were poorly trained and unaware that so far as under 16's were concerned, having sex was not a "lifestyle choice" but a criminal offence). There was a great deal of documentary evidence showing that it was a sort of inverse racism that condemned these young women to be considered by police officers to have brought their ill treatment on themselves by associating with "Pakis".

As I understand it from yesterday's Independent some sort of cutting is involved, the clitoris is not removed, sexual pleasure and reproduction are still achievable. There are four categories in fgm allegedly and this would be the mildest form, a sort of tacit nod to say something has been done "down there" to head off the victim having to undergo the worst type of fgm. Mild fgm doesn't give any lasting problems but presumably allows the relatives to convey the fact that "she's been sorted" A procedure for which there is no purpose other than presumably a skewed kindness

I will never understand how people started and maintained this practice for so many years. I think its so awful that women over the generations have continued to allow this to happen. They may have allowed it to continue out of fear or submission or to fit into their social and cultural groups.
Whatever their reasons it is wrong. The body belongs to the person that inhabits it it should not be violated by another person. Everyone should have a choice to decide what happens to their bodies. This is an act of violence not kindness. I respect others beliefs and the way they conduct themselves is their own business providing they observe the rules.
This is an outdated custom or practice - many women die in childbirth as a result of fgm many girls growing to adult women have urinary and gyneacological problems for life. it cannot be sanitized. Its cruel and should not be happening in 2016.
I am weary of us all being so understanding and creeping around issues that affect women its got nothing to do with race at all. Let the little girls grow up and decide for themselves.

FGM is abhorrent. It should not be permitted in any form in any way anywhere. End of.

And what about male genital mutilation? Aka unecessary Circumcisions

There is a reason why men and all animals have foreskins. It is to protect the most sensitive parts of the penis.

The link below has some discussion about the drawbacks of circumcision.

www.drmomma.org/2010/01/cut-vs-intact-outcome-statistics.html

Dont view this if you are of a nervous disposition but it shows exactly what happens.
www.drmomma.org/2011/01/neonatal-circumcision-video-for.html

Petra you mentioned there had been no prosecutions.

This is the current number :-

FGM cases in England and Wales

One prosecution - two defendants found not guilty

Three cases currently with CPS for consideration

Aware of four other cases under investigation but not yet passed to the CPS for consideration

Eleven cases in which the CPS have decided there could be no further action and no prosecution

One case in which police decided there could be no further action

Source: CPS

that by the way was just the facts = not intended as a comment from me .

I find it an abhorrent practice and in the UK it IS illegal. That should be enough to stop it.

NanaandGrampy. Thanks for that. So, one unsuccessful prosecution.
The powers that be are really taking this seriously aren't they?

I disagree with Richard Dawkins. I am a feminist and I am totally opposed to this practice.

I don't understand how the one case I read about failed for lack of evidence. They had the doctor , they had the girl....what am I missing here ?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fgm-trial-cps-accused-of-show-trial-as-uks-first-female-genital-mutilation-case-collapses-10024487.html

I read this report (and similar in other newspapers) at the time.

It seems to have very little to do with the real physical abuse that's being inflicted on girls/young women by the practice of FGM.

A strange case to bring when there was the possibility of a defence of having acted in the best interests of the patient; and there seems to be no suggestion that FGM occurred at the time of the delivery. A bit puzzling.

It seems impossible that no other cases have been brought.

margrete I agree. It's totally wrong of Richard Dawkins to imply that feminism in some way condones, on the grounds of ethnic sensitivities, any form of genital mutilation. There are always extreme people with extreme ideas but my feeling is that that the vast majority of feminists would make no allowances whatsoever for FGM.

NanaandGrampy I think the article that Ana provided shows that the CPS made a huge error of judgment in pursuing this doctor. He had not been made aware that the woman in labour had been subject to FGM. In an emergency situation, he had to cut the woman in order to enable her baby to be born. She was bleeding profusely and he inserted a 1.5 cm. stitch to staunch the flow, which the CPS chose to interpret as "repairing" the FGM. The jury took only 30 minutes to give a not guilty verdict.

It's a very difficult crime to prosecute. You have to identify who has been mutilated and presumably who authorised it and, then, who carried it out. In France there are more prosecutions because it is, I believe, the law that up until the age of 6 all girls must be medically examined to check that they have not been genitally mutilated. Perhaps that's one way of trying to wipe this practice out but I'm not sure if it's the right way.

But what could the UK do about this, you could examine all girls coming back from areas where this is practiced but what sanctions do you put on these parents? There is a problem with prosecution, imprison the parents and have children needing to go into care?

However misguided these parents are about FGM, they probably still think they are doing their best for their children.

In places where family honour and tradition might come in, girls who report this might end up by being thought to have brought shame on their families and being ostracised or punished for that.

I dont see that misogyny has anything to do with this, it's more about ignorance, superstion and long held cultural practices. Boys get this with circumcision.

What is needed is much better enforced education everywhere about the rights of woman and the dangers of this dreadful practice. Force parents to go on courses about the problems caused by this practice. This issue needs handling with sensitivity or the situation will not improve.

To cause even more family difficulties for these young women could be even more damaging to them.

In this country FGM, honour killings and all the rest are abhorrent and considered crimes. People from any culture or none coming to this country should understand this and obey our laws if they want to live here.

The countries that many of these people come from have strict cultural laws that women from other countries, including Britain,are expected to obey when they are there. Saudi Arabia is on obvious example.

Obviously there will always be a bit of give and take, we recognise the differences in people's attitudes and beliefs. Arranged marriages are rare among western Europeans, more common in Asian cultures, and providing the marriage is voluntary and not forced nobody will object.

But there are limits and where a cultural practice involves gross mutilation that may cause someone to have serious medical problems for the rest of their lives then we have every right to say no and prosecute anyone who enables it to happen. If it means that parents have to be prosecuted and imprisoned then that should happen. A few cases where parents are imprisoned will make it clear that when the UK says this practise is abhorrent they mean it and that the law banning it has teeth.