How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

Niggly, can you tell us what the EU has to do with ex servicemen being supported or not, as you seem to think it is reasoned argument?

Have you given up yet, niggly?

Chrissye07. Hi. I'm afraid that unless you go with a certain flow on these political threads you will get shouted down, and in the end give up. Reasoned conversation doesn't really exist, your opinions will be perceived as right wing, subversive and downright wicked! I am very uncertain as to how I will vote for various reasons, one of which is that I just don't know enough about it, but I wouldn't begin to express that or anything else on here. I wouldn't try and fight your corner, it's just not worth it. Lurking is a better bet!!! Sad but true.

UKIP makes those sort of daft arguments

Wondering what on earth the EU has to do with ex servicemen being supported or not. There are no EU wide forces as far as I am aware (nor ever likely to be) and each country looks after its own.

What I find so incredibly frustrating and so utterly bewildering is that people are willing to leap into the no camp with absolutely so idea of what they are voting for.

They know what they don't want, but seem to have no idea how to achieve what they do want.
The trouble is that they will almost certainly get a lot more of what they don't want like a contracting economy, and loss of Scotland.
No-one is saying that the EU is the panacea for all that is wrong, but to turn our backs on it completely with all that is good about it and not remain to change what we think is wrong is folly indeed.

I was born in 1955, so I remember life before the EU and I remember the silliness when we were asked to vote about staying in. I remember the threats about not being able to buy British sausages or cheese. Errrmmm! As far as I'm aware, we can still buy British bangers and Cheddar, although we now have a much greater variety.

I remember the hassle involved with going through passport control for a day trip to Calais. I worked in Germany for a year and also remember the trouble involved applying for a work visa and health insurance.

The EU has forced the UK to improve workers' rights and conditions, especially for women. I remember when discrimination was rife in all walks of life. Nobody could have missed the Panama Papers scandal, but the UK can't fight international tax evasion and avoidance on its own. We need to be part of a powerful bloc, which the EU is.

Anybody who thinks we can go back to the 50s or 60s trading conditions is living in lalaland. The UK still had the remnants of an empire in the 1960s and we were still used to exploiting people. Australian and New Zealand have found new markets in the Far East and China has an increasing influence in Africa. We have a trade deficit and leaving the EU will almost certainly make it worse. The UK is likely to become a low wage, sweatshop economy. Germany is currently our biggest trading partner, but the Germans will almost certainly look to Eastern Europe, if barriers to trade are put in their way. The UK could also lose employers like Nissan and other foreign businesses which currently invest in the UK, because trade with the EU is easy.

We used to have manufacturing, but it isn't the EU which has killed that, but a deliberate policy by the Thatcher government to replace manufacturing with financial services, mainly based in London. The EU has been pumping billions of pounds into our deprived areas and it's the short-sighted UK governments which have prevented regeneration schemes from being more successful.

I could go on, but it's late and I'm tired. I will most emphatically vote 'In' and I've been making sure that my children's eligible friends are signed up to vote - the deadline for registration is the 18 April and some of them didn't realise that they weren't registered. This is their future and they should have a say.

What does ex-service men not being supported have to do with the EU?

"Completed the survey....to come out! No question!"

That's what you wrote on the other thread last Tuesday, Chrissy, so I don't think it's us that have caused you to make up your mind - unless you were lying to get £100.
You wouldn't, would you?

It's the DWP who stop the bloody benefits, not the EU! I do not see your point. You are ignoring my point that the EU are going to check whether their human rights have been infringed by this government.
So go on, vote out, and you will be making sure they do not have any.
This government wants to do away with the Human Rights Act anyway. The soldiers will really thank you for that.

'how it was when I grew up in some ways' is what I wrote.
I also haven't disagreed with some of the EU law or regulations.
Rather than have my every word homed in and misinterpreted I might just lurk in future and read posts by people that seem to have a 100% guarantee that we will benefit from staying in!

No my biggest fear is not immigration.....where in my post did I say that?

And who said I grew up 50 or 60 years ago either? Or what my ethnicity is? Just because I'm a grandmother doesn't suggest my age? I wasn't even a twinkle in my dads eye then.
I'm nearly 49 .... with 2 young grandchildren. I still work and am very aware of equality and diversity.....I have straight, gay, white and black friends and work colleagues who I think very highly of.
What I do care about is ex service men that aren't being supported which is an absolute disgrace, war hero's with terrible injuries that get benefits stopped.
If I wasn't sure about which way I was going to vote before I read this forum I am now. Bully tactics and forceful opinions don't wash with me

That doesn't make sense, Chrissy.
Where do we have our men and women out there fighting?
Not in Syria, where most of the refugees come from. We have no boots on the ground there.

Cameron and cohort are in charge of the housing of migrants and ex service men, as well as the unemployed in social housing. The EU is looking into whether the government has infringed their human rights.
Without EU laws we would all have fewer rights.
EU regulations got rid of painting wooden toys with lead paints. Quite often toys are brought in from the far east which do have lead paint. Before CE rules, British toys were painted with lead paint. Do you wish to go back to that?
It brought in laws to make sure your children and grandchildren do not choke on small things - providing, of course, you take notice of CE marks.

So your biggest fear is immigration?

As for growing up in the same kind of world as fifty or sixty years ago, I'm very glad that it's no longer acceptable to be sexist, racist, homophobic or get away with any other kind of bigoted comments, but I don't believe that has much to do with the EU.

Which EU laws would you like to abolish?

Sorry, that's not the kind of change I want to see.

I was kidding about my foot, whitewave

That Dutch guy also added that 'it's morphed into a giant, expensive, bureaucratic monster with all sorts of other social, political, geopolitical and economic agendas. It needs to be scaled back to a pure free-trade zone'.??

I just want the country back to how it was when I grew up in some ways where everything wasn't about majority's, minority's and being told what we can and can't say or can and cant do for fear of upsetting others that don't want to abide by the same laws that we have to do and would have to do in whatever country we were in. Obviously its not only based on that but I will admit that's part of it.
I base part of my decision on what I see......migrants being housed or put up in hotels and our ex service men left on the streets with no support and nowhere to go. I'm all for helping refugees/people but not young men that are coming here and not willing to fight for their country when our men and women are out there leaving families at home hoping they'll come back safe.
In or out might or might not change any of these things but I just cant see things getting better for British people while we're in.

Jen, if the tories do win a majority I am sure they will allow badger culling no matter thst the problem has been controlled without killing these beautiful animals, I do wonder if they are so much for culling the Badgers because they get their guns out and play big white hunters

No not your foot I meant the UKs foot.
What the Dutch guy described is what we've got now.
That is what we would lose if we voted out, and so shoot ourselves in the foot!!

I'm not saying its not fact whitewave. I've read so much its making me go cross eyed. I said it was complex and unbelievable. I also read a comment from some Dutch guy that says:

A free trade zone with standardisation on technical, safety and other regulatory matters is a great idea. It makes it possible and economical for a company to sell their product across a large market of different nations with minimal costs and bureaucratic overhead. The result is lower costs for consumers and also for innovative products to be introduced to everyone sooner.

If you meant my foot, its fine!

What is unbelievable about it chris That is what the EEA is operating under, fact. That is potentially what we will be operating under should we vote to leave. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

You may not fear something different WW but I bet a lot of people will do.

I think it will be too rosesarered. Its a difficult decision but I personally think its time for a change. We live in Britain but are governed elsewhere....who thought that one up? Do any of us really know about the EU? I googled and found the model that whitewave posted. Very complex and unbelievable!

What we have now as members has gradually evolved over time. We have been fully paid up members with our governments playing a full part in the treaties and laws. We have helped shape the model and have had a veto where we thought necessary.

However look at the EEA model and then consider what we will have if we leave. Do you think that the Norwegian model or something like it is what you expect or would you like something different from that? If you think the post EU UK should decide its own future think very carefully about how we are going to achieve that given the fact that we will be negotiating with the biggest economic block in the world. Who is the stronger? Who needs access to 550million customer? How will our small businesses thrive with the customs tariffs and New VAT rules?
The rest is outlined in the Norwegian model.

It isn't a question of reducing it to a trite saying, but something that must be faced and given intelligent thought.
I would be absolutely willing to give another model serious consideration, and if I thought it would work for the UK better than what we've got vote for it like a shot, but we haven't and I am simply not prepared to gamble my children's and grandchildren future.

A lot of them do Chrissy which is why I have always thought the result will be that we stay in ' always keep a hold of nurse, for fear of finding something worse'
Kind of syndrome.However I do think now that the result will be close.

Gulp! Is that a requirement?
Sorry, I'm not clever enough but did we know the sort of model we would have before we joined in the first place because I'm sure if it was how things panned out we wouldn't have bothered.
If what I wrote doesn't make sense it means I didn't understand the question.

Do people want to stay in the EU because that's what they know and it is the fear of the unknown....which could be better?

Anyone wish to comment about the sort of model we will have if we leave?