How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

I imagine you do not share any of his views other than wanting to leave the EU.
Wasn't he deselected for being a member of militant?

You say earlier that it is possible to listen to both sides of an argument. So why will you not accept that Corbyn has done that and been persuaded that the right thing to do is stay in and stay with the socialist group? Or is changing his mind not allowed for Corbyn? Corbyn is altruistic. So is McDonnell.

Hilary Benn voted both for and against the referendum. He changed his mind on that issue. Tony Benn changed his mind on quite a few things, too, although you wouldn't know that from the press he got.
Sorry, but the thought of him voting with Boris makes me feel sick.

One of Tony Benn's five rules was if we do not like you how can we get rid of you?
I'd be surprised if he thought the way this government is going was any more democratic than the EU. The government by its boundary changes is ensuring that they will be in for life. They will have an inbuilt majority.
He wouldn't have agreed with them having fixed term parliaments, which the government has just used to quash the idea of having an early election.

I'm afraid it suits the US to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration because a massive percentage of farm labourers are illegal. The richer inhabitants benefit because it gives them access to cheap fruit and vegetables. If illegal immigration was stamped on the crops would rot in the field and farmers would be up in arms in agricultural areas such as California's Central Valley.
articles.extension.org/pages/9960/migrant-farm-workers:-our-nations-invisible-population
Obama recently used his position to declare an amnesty for many longer-term illegal immigrants who have contributed to the US economy for decades and raised families there. The fact is that booming economies need access to cheap labour and seasonal labour.
If anyone has any optimistic thoughts about what it would it would is like being a small nation in a trade deal with the US, I suggest you read this sorry story:http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/05/14/182568333/samoans-await-the-return-of-the-tasty-turkey-tail

Does anyone sleep on here?

This country was on the verge of bankruptcy at the end of WW2. The money we had from the U.S. was a loan with interest, finally repaid by us in 2005!!! Perhaps you who were not born till well after the end of the war and whose families were unaffected fail to understand that this country consisted of thousands of war widows, orphans and people whose lives had been shattered both mentally and physically. Homes, businesses, buildings of all kinds had been destroyed in the extensive bombing endured by the people countrywide. The task of repairing this demolished nation and its shell shocked population was an unprecedented task for the incoming government Not only that, Europe was as bad if not worse, the Dutch were actually starving as what the retreating Germans couldn't take, they destroyed, hence operation Market Garden which entailed airdrops of food obviously making our own food situation much worse. We then had the Berlin airlift, again to prevent starvation. So to say that this country wasted all the money lent to us is just plain rubbish. How the heck did the NHS come I to being?!!
I know it's all a long time ago, but for us who lived through it it was very real, and we were the lucky ones! The constant denigration of this country really hacks me off. Sure there were bad things, like everywhere else, but it wasn't all wicked and stupid and ridiculous. We weren't complete monsters!

The point is nellie was that the money was not spent wisely. It was spent on pursuing our dreams of an empire and armaments, and not as America intended on rebuilding our industrial base and economy as Germany did.

Of course this was not given for purely altruistic reasons, as the US economy had slowed down because of lack of exports after the war and expansion of European economy meant expansion of US economy - rather similar to the argument raging today.

My point of argument is that Germany invested in its industrial base with the money from the Marshall plan and by the 1950s we all know with utter amazement their economy was spinning along brilliantly. Whereas we were stuck in the doldrums knocking on the early EUs door hoping to get some of the action.

You're probably right whitewave, and I don't want to quarrel with you. WW2 is my Achilles heel, so I shouldn't really comment when it's raised. I think actually that Germans are very hard workers, very thorough and very orderly! which certainly helped West Germany to get back on its feet, (think the East was a bit grim?!) attributes we perhaps are not quite so blessed with!!! How else did Hitler mesmorise a whole nation? You can see it at first, after the horrors of WW1 he did, I suppose bring work, and order to a broken nation; but latterly?!!!
Still not sure how to vote though! Whose got the crystal ball?!

"Day6 said I was on the Remain site. Are you disputing that?
Actually she said I was being fed left wing tracts given to me by the Remain office."

You'll find I didn't say that. I merely mused/wondered, and ended my remark with a question mark.

Perhaps I hit a nerve?

Oh don't want to be too overbearing nell

What is really interesting is there was a plan put forward before the Marshall plan -I will get back with the name of the American who devised it - that intended to strip Germany of all its industry, use forced German Labour overseas and evoke retribution. It was astoundingly nasty. After a good deal of thought it was decided to go with the Marshall plan, largely because America thought it was in its -Americas- best interest. Not because it was so unpleasant. Thank God we didn't go with the first idea.

Morgenthau Plan. He as a US senator I think.. It was vicious, but I suppose after Auchwitz etc.

DJ - "I imagine you do not share any of his views other than wanting to leave the EU."

You'd be wrong. I come from a working class background.

DJ - "Wasn't he deselected for being a member of militant?"

He was. I believe he and the then younger Corbyn often believed in the same things. Corbyn is now toeing the Labour party line. He's had to, it would seem.

The labour party line is changing because of Corbyn.

I come from a working class background, too. It didn't stop my parents voting Tory until Blair came along.
Your background has nothing to do with your own views unless you do not think for yourself.

I think from now on I'll put a question mark after every statement?
Just to make sure you know I'm thinking about it?

whitewave. What you've described sounds quite horrible, and thank goodness it wasn't implemented. Trouble is after that after WW1 and then something like the Hitler war people hated Germans and Germany with a vengeance. Thankfully my mother didn't take this attitude, and there was never even a whisper of anti German feeling at home, in fact we had a German girl to stay with us in the summer of 1957 when I was 14 and Inge was 17, all to do with a peace and reconciliation group that my mother was involved with. We discovered that Inge's father had been sent to the Russian front as a punishment for refusing an order to shoot a group of Ukrainian Jews. He was lucky to survive, and I think this goes to prove that nothing is completely black and white, and that hatred is a corrosive that will cloud your judgment. Japan however did prove a difficulty for all my stepfathers life and was never reconciled, so it was best left!!

What helped Germany get back on its feet after WW2 was the idea of 'Stunde Null' (Zero Hour). The country was destroyed and it had to start from scratch. It also had to absorb 7-8 million displaced ethnic Germans from Poland and other countries in the east, who were destitute and homeless. It had a new constitution, new ideas and it rebuilt its industry and infrastructure with Marshall Plan grants and loans, whereas the British held on to the idea that it could carry on as a colonial power, as it had been before WW2. Modern Germans value cooperation, because they know from their history about the consequences of not cooperating.

Hitler mesmerised many Britons too. You only have to read 1930s newspapers to realise that. It was a different world (hopefully) - racist, xenophobic, antisemitic and. nationalistic. The Daily Mail supported Oswald Mosley and his British Union of Fascists throughout most of the 1930s. The Hitler Youth was widely admired as a way of making young people toe the line, as were internment camps for the unemployed, socialists, petty criminals, etc.

The Morgenthau Plan was actually presented to the British in 1944 before the full horrors of Auschwitz were known. It was actually partially implemented. About 4 million German prisoners of war were still working in Britain and France in 1947 (the father of my school exchange partner was one of them) and there were restrictions on German steel production until the early 1950s.

Thanks for filling in * daph* interesting isn't it?

The 1930s were fascinating for historians and psychologists. The further removed we become from the conflict, the more difficult it is to imagine, but also easier to understand, as modern historians tend to study the whole era more dispassionately. I wonder how many Britons know about the forced marches of millions of ethnic Germans from Poland, how much Poles, Lithuanians, etc collaborated with the Germans, because they saw it as a way of beating Communist Russia or the absolute devastation the war caused to German cities.

The first question to be asked is 'Why Germany?' During the late 1920s antisemiticism was rife throughout Europe. If anything, Germany at the time was more accepting than many other countries. Intermarriage was quite common and many German Jews were secular and just got on with their lives. Thousands of Jews died fighting for Germany in WW1 and there were a number of prominent Jewish statesmen. The Nazis, of course, highlighted this fact and blamed prominent Jews for selling out after WW1. Jews had had legal equality in Germany since the mid-nineteenth century. British Jews didn't have a right to vote until the 1867 Reform Act. Disraeli, who was born Jewish, had to renounce his religion to become PM. Historians will no doubt argue for years about the answer to 'Why Germany?' I have a horrible feeling that it could very well have been Britain.

I think when people look back at the late 20th century, they will view Germany's 'new' ideas, democracy and cooperation positively. What has this to do with the EU? Well, I would rather be part of a cooperative Europe than outside.

The restrictions on German steel presumably ceased when the Steel community was implemented?
So the Morganthau plan was instigated as an effort to stop Germany from starting WW3?

Off topic, but for anyone interested in the history of pre-war Germany, I would thoroughly recommend the Third Reich trilogy by the historian, Richard J. Evans. We have also just bought the boxed set of "Heimat", which is an amazing TV series about life in a rural part of Germany from 1919 to 2000 (53 hours of television!).
And I agree I would far rather be part of a cooperative Europe than outside it.

Agree with you, Mamie. Evans was a professor at Cambridge until recently and I'v heard hims speak a couple of times. Another historian worth reading for the same period is Ian Kershaw, who's done much interesting and detailed research about the social history of the 1930s.

Yet another to add to my reading list. I shall never live long enough!

ww, I think the whole world was nervous about what Germany would do if allowed to rebuild its industry, including Churchill. Morgenthau had wanted to starve Germany of funds, but fortunately the Americans realised that a strong Germany was a better defence against the Communist Soviet Union. Morgenthau had wanted to make Germany a rural economy, which was ridiculous, because the Soviet Union could have have just walked in. Initially, the Saar was taken from Germany and given to France, although it was returned after a plebiscite.

Germany wasn't allowed to have an army until 1955 and even then it was only a defence force. The German army still only acts as part of NATO and not as a free-standing force.

Did the Soviet Union strip much of East Germany and cart it back to Russia.

I think there is still nervousness about Germany. As nellie said they are so efficient and ruthless in pursuit of their interests.

Still looking at Germany in the EU. There is no doubt that compared to other members Germany is an absolute juggernaut . I think the UK definitely creates a balance, and if we left I wonder just what would happen to the EU.

Yes, it did. The Russian army physically dismantled factories and infrastructure and took them to the Soviet Union. East Germany also had to pay Russia war reparations. Silesia, which had been part of Germany and was highly industrialised, became part of Poland. It's a miracle that the country did as well as it did. I suspect it would have rebelled if the Stasi hadn't kept it under such tight control.

There were chronic shortages of just about everything, the birth rate was very low, because women had no choice but to work. Nevertheless, the health service was pretty good, transport was efficient and unemployment was zero (even if it did mean two people doing the same job!) Angela Merkel was brought up under this regime and I wonder if it affects her thinking about austerity. In both Germanies, the former ruling classes finally lost their power and wealth.

I think there is less nervousness about Germany amongst young people, for whom WW2 is history. I taught German in schools from 1982 and the vast majority of my pupils were positive about Germany, especially if they'd been on a trip or exchange. There is no danger of military aggression from Germany, because it doesn't really have an army. The danger is from the economy and I found that the more forward-thinking young people wanted to go and work in Germany and share in the spoils. Remember 'Auf Wiedersehen Pet?' I taught a number of pupils who found construction jobs in Germany after 1989. Perhaps that's why young people tend to be more positive about the EU.

Is the fact that we appear to be being almost dragooned into remaining inside the EU due to a very real worry that if we leave it could create a domino effect with other countries demanding a referendum which could threaten its very existence? Germany holding the financial whip hand must be somewhat daunting, particularly after the debacle with Greece. I can't help but feel there is an agenda here that we don't know about.
Thank you Mamie for your recommendations, I shall certainly seek them out with interest.

I think there is still nervousness about Germany. As nellie said they are so efficient and ruthless in pursuit of their interests
I think there is less nervousness about Germany amongst young people, for whom WW2 is history.
I wonder if that is since 1989 (although you mention 1982 daphnedil), as it was German efficiency and the extreme ruthlessness of the Soviets which combined to form a society which was to be feared, both by other countries and by some of the population of East Germany themselves.

I remember hearing reservations from some people when the Berlin Wall fell that Germany could rise again to become too powerful and perhaps some older people (not necessarily in the UK - I was remembering the programme about Greece) still wonder if that is happening with the EU and that it is unbalanced as a result.