Anti Semitism in Labour Party and Universities.

I don't really think numbers matter. The death toll was horrendous. Anniebach I would think the records, particularly of the disabled were not kept. I was unaware of what was done to disabled children until I read a novel about it-afraid I have forgotten its name. What came across was that having a disabled child was something people wanted to forget. It is a much under reported area.

Numbers are indeed irrelevant when a systematic programme of genocide is taking place. Arguing that there may have been fewer wiped out hardly mitigates the crime or the intentions. Of course we must also remember that gypsies, disabled, dissenters, homosexuals and anyone else who perished in the death camps.

History has a horrible way of repeating itself and coming back in different guises such as the fascist, nihilistic Arab death cults in existence around the world at the moment. Strangely the Belgian terrorist involved in the Paris massacre, Salah something or other, was allegedly a homosexual on his way to Syria, which begs the question, why he would go there when he must know how they treat gay people. Possibly he would exonerated for the glorious act of playing an instrumental role in the many deaths that occurred.

Yes ab the Germans were meticulous in keeping records. I know this because my father was shot down and killed over occupied Holland, and I have managed to find out from the records made and kept by the occupying power, that were sent to me on request, every last detail, not only time, place and funeral details, (they provided a guard of honour for these airmen! How strange is that!!) but personal effects, down to photographs recovered, bits of flying gear, name tags, even a comb! All carefully noted down and, according to records, bagged up ready to return to the Red Cross. Records like this were kept for absolutely everything and everyone; so yes, all the people you name would have been equally meticulously recorded. These records of course do prove the fate of the numbers of Jews murdered, as well as other victims of the Nazis, and put paid to others saying differently.

The murder of handicapped people before 1939, was again recorded, person for person, but the records were falsified, being classed as natural causes!!! Before the war, the authorities were not sure what the public reaction would be, so 'murder' was covered up. Once the war started, propaganda soon changed public opinion, whole families with a handicapped member being arrested for some trumped up charge (a drop of Jewish blood?) legalized anything and everything. Dark days indeed!!

The deaths of disabled children were recorded but the order to kill them was done by sending them to special clinics to 'treat' them. Death was then sometimes recorded as natural causes. This was happening pre 1939. Some of these children were used for medical experiments. This is not talked about much, as isn't the deaths of all the socialist and trade union activists who were imprisoned and killed.

dapnnedill

If you look back on page 12, 12th post down, I moderated my post concerning how many Jews were concerned about anti semitsm.

I don't know where you are getting your information concerning Paul Eisen. His views are so extreme that his group was disown by the mainstream Palestinian Solidarity Campaign in 2007. Eisen's open Holocaust denial has made him a toxic figure among many pro-Palestian activists.

Only Corbyn refused to shun him. And Eisen said he was present at evry meeting.

Not only that, Eisen is a supporter of David Duke, the former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard, 9/11 'truther' and notorious conspiriacy theorist. Corbyn didn't need a crystal ball to know that!

Jonathathan Sacerdoli. Director of Communications at the Campaign Against Antisemitsm said: No politician should have any association whatsoever with a Holocaust denier like Paul Eisen. It is disturbing to see these pictures of (at that time) a potential Leader of the Opposition at one of his events.' Corbyn has refused five times to condemn IRA atrocities when interviewed by BBC Radio Ulster.

As for denying the number of Jews killed was not so much as we all know; as other posters have said, whatever the Nazis were, they kept meticulous records and the number cannot be disputed. It is outrageous to say anything other. As for the comment that Hilter's intention was not to exterminate all Jews, I can only be amazed that anyone should print that! He managed to murder six million and had the Jews of this country earmarked too.

"socialists and trade unionists" - I was going to add that too. I had a Jewish friend, older than me, whose father was a communist in prewar Berlin. He was arrested and disappeared, early '30s. My friend and her mother managed to escape to England where she trained as a midwife and worked at Hope Hospital in Salford.
Also someone mentioned the increasing number of Arabs/Muslims in Europe as a factor in increased antisemitic acts. That certainly does seem to be the case in France, where there's a much bigger proportion of Arabs to Jews than in the UK.

As for your claim that the Nazis asked the Jews to leave, I would like documentation of where that information came from. I can't even go there.

The government here refused to accept the children of socialists and trade unionists who were under threat. An organisation called the "Woodcraft Folk" held an international camp which children from Germany were sent to the organisers then simply arranged for the children to go to stay with British families. Many of their parents were imprisoned and killed. The children spent the war with their British family. The Woodcraft Folk have strong links with the Cooperative movement and socialism. Socialists activists have always taken care of those who are under threat.

N.B.
I have found information that Hitler in 1938, did, indeed,offered to let the Jews leave Germany, peacefully. U.S., Britain and most other countries refused to let them in. The Jews had no way out.

And if politicians did more talking and listening regardless if it is with extremists we would solve more problems

Why is it , it's acceptable to condemn racists, terrorists etc but not to say its's wrong but I understand why

I am a pacifist, I never supported the killings by the IRA but I understand what was the cause if their actions. On a different forum outrage against the IRA was often discussed but actions like Bloody Sunday was dismissed

On the refusal of this country refusing to accept refugee Jews,it's true. I have seen posters which were in boarding houses and pubs - no Irish, no Jews, no dogs, this was the thirties , following the war Jews were dropped but no blacks in their place, this was legal until the sixties

Yes, Venus, I've found that too. You're right that no other country would take them, or only in a very limited way. I suppose you can argue that nobody then could possibly have realised what a terrible fate awaited the Jewish population. I have heard that the tiny trickle of information about the horrors of the camps that filtered out just wasn't believed by the authorities, and considered a gross exaggeration. Trouble was that the Nazis were so clever at covering their tracks, that the places inspected by the Red Cross bore absolutely no resemblance to the real thing, and the R.C were fooled, again and again. Perhaps it suited them?!! It was all a dreadful, dreadful business and imo the Jews, after centuries of persecution by virtually every country in the world, simply had to have somewhere to call home.

In answer to you trisher. I think you'll see from my post that I think apologising or harking back to events way back in the mists of time is ridiculous! Peterloo included!!!!!!

But you made allegations niggly just wanted to balance things out. You can't bring up things and expect them to be ignored.

No trisher, I was answering ab's comment about David Cameron's visit to South Africa in 1989.proving that he approved of apartheid, and by implication probably still does. I was pointing out that a lot of people in high places in both main parties weren't all that they appeared and that it is ridiculous to hark back to God knows when to make a political point. I used Jack Jones as an example of this, not as an accusation.

Nigglenellie

From April 1942 to February 1943 the Allies knew about the concentration camps. British intelligence intercepted decoded radio messages sent by 'German Order Police' which included daily prisoner returns and death tolls for ten concentration camps including Auschwitch during 1942

I had a non Jewish Polish friend who was in the Polish Resistance. He followed the trains to the death camps. Coming back he managed to get into the Warsaw ghetto and told the Jews what was happening to their friends and families. They refused to believe it. Only after they had written to them and got no repy, did they understand that he was telling the truth.

Venus if you really want to get into it there is evidence that Jewish leaders knew exactly what was happening and a deal was done in 1944 about Hungarian Jews. Jim Allen's play about this was prevented from being performed by the actions of Zionists. Directed by Ken Loach it was banned at the Royal Court

Trouble is Venus, there are different accounts of who knew what, that it's hard to get at the complete truth, and perhaps the British Government preferred to display ignorance. All these years later it's very hard to say. Having said that the troops who liberated the camps were truly very VERY shocked at what they saw,with good reason.

I wonder what they were expected to do with the knowledge as well. In 1942 Britain was recovering from the Blitz, had troops fighting in N. Africa and was being attacked by the Japanese in Singapore. Once they had managed to retake N.Africa they moved on to Italy. At the same time they were fighting under cover battles in France and Greece. Should they have released the news about what was happening? I think all news was restricted at the time and anything that might help the enemy was censored. Knowing they were being overheard would have enabled the Germans to develop precautions.

There was a suggestion that the camps should have been bombed, but logistically this would have been impossible, and also bombing would have killed so many inmates. Some might have been freed, to go where? almost certainly they would have been re captured and shot out of hand or worse. Realistically there was nothing anyone could do except bring the war to a close as quickly as possible.

Nigglenellie, I did not say Cameron still supported apartheid, the fact that Corbyn is not trusted because of people he has spoken to then the same applies to Cameron, his visit! Was for and paid for by a company which supported apartheid - so what difference between the two? The decade has nothing to do with it,

trisher

The play, Perdition, was based on evidence that suggests wealthy Zionists collaborated with the Nazis in expelling Hungarian Jews in 1944 in return for a promise of a 'homeland'. That does not suggest that they knew about the concentration camps and the 'final solution.'

The allies knew about the camps, Nigglynellie, as th RAF had taken reconnaissance photos of them in 1944/45. The debate was over should the Allies bomb the gas chamber complexes or the rail lines leading to them had its origins in 1944.

One argument why not was that the Allies did not know about the Final Solution early enough to make plans for bombing.

The fact is that the Alies had information about the extermination of the Jews as early as 1942.

Birkenau prisoners worked outside the camp so the number of casualties would would not have been high. Moreover, the number of Jews save would have outweighed the number who would have been killed in the raid itself.

Destroying the crimatoria would have eliminated 75% of its killing capacity at a time when it would have been difficult to rebuild them. If Churchill and Roosevelt had ordered an attack, it would not have been considered a division for forces engaged elsewhere.

Doris Kearns, a noted Roosevelt historian, said, 'With the kind of political will and moral courage the Allies exhibited in other missions throughout the war, it is plain that the failure to bomb Birkenau the site of mankind's greatest abomination, was a missed opportunity of monumental proportions.'

And I believe the Palestinians have borne the brunt of the fallout as the Allies tried to make up for the undeniable horrors of the Holocaust and the fact they did not halt it sooner

I think you'll find Venus That the bombers in those days would have been at or beyond the limit of their fuel capacity if they'd attempted to bomb the death camps, also precision bombing simply didn't exist, so it would have been very difficult not to cause a lot of unwanted casualties.

Interestingly, this anti-semitism matter came up today in PMQ's, and Cameron told Corbyn to clean up his party.Or words to that effect!