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The Labour Party

(207 Posts)
Anya Mon 18-Apr-16 14:16:14

Is it just me or do other moderate left-wingers feel alarmed by the way the Labour party is being torn apart by a move to the far left and the way this is being glorified on GN?
I've never voted Tory in my life and I detested Blair before it became fashionable to dislike him. But I feel the heart is being torn out of the Labour party. This talk of returning to 'traditional values' is no such thing but a cover for a lurch to the extreme left.
There must, surely, be others like myself whose socialist principles are firmly held, but who are alarmed by the current situation.
I know the reaction this thread is going to get from some who think otherwise, but I believe that there is a cohort of quiet socialists on this forum who would agree with me.

Iam64 Mon 18-Apr-16 20:01:19

I did not vote for JC in the recent leadership election. I left the labour party when Militant were running wild, re joined when Ed Milliband was elected leader because I'd seen him speak and liked his approach. Sadly, none of that translated into leadership material and all political parties need charismatic leaders, especially leaders who can appear on tv and impress, make people feel the country is safe in their hands. That isn't JC, in my view. I accept he won a huge mandate, I didn't like the £3 vote but I felt I ought to support him for the following year because of the strength of votes for him. We're about 8 months in and whilst I often agree with what he says, I don't trust or warm to him. He reminds me so much of men I worked with in the 80's - it was their way or the high way, despite all their talk of equality and fraternity.

I don't see why a former libdem voter would vote conservative. The slashing and burning of valued public services by this government,now the libdems are no longer holding them back is frightening. I didn't like Nick Clegg, found him conceited and I thought I'd never vote libdem. However - the way things are going I can see them becoming a force to be reckoned with again.

whitewave Mon 18-Apr-16 22:02:00

If anyone on here thinks that Labour is looking dodgy, it is a million miles from what the Tories are looking like. You can hear the venom between the two sides. The General opinion is that it will be almost impossible if not actually impossible for them to recover after the referendum. I think we are in for some interesting times.
One comentator said that the poisonous and bitter language could not possibly be broadcast. Nobody does splits and hate like the Tories.

Anniebach Mon 18-Apr-16 22:16:32

The Labour Party has never got shot of a leader , the tories got shot of Thatcher when she was PM

Anya Mon 18-Apr-16 22:17:15

This is NOT about the Tories whitewave this is about the Labour party and the path it is being led down. I'm not the only one who thinks it is being torn apart.

Anya Mon 18-Apr-16 22:20:42

Here we go!

Anniebach Mon 18-Apr-16 22:21:14

Anya, whitewave was not the first to speak of other parties

Anya Mon 18-Apr-16 22:23:46

Time to moon and leave the thread to go as usual.......

pompa Mon 18-Apr-16 22:24:05

I voted Labour for many years, but they have not (IMO) had a creditable leader and shadow cabinet since the days of Blair & Brown. It would take an enormous turn around in their leadership before I would vote for them again.

Penstemmon Mon 18-Apr-16 22:34:47

I have only just felt able to actually join the Labour Party as at last it is saying the things that align with my thinking. For many many elections I have felt unrepresented by any mainstream party.

I think there is a danger when all major parties have similar positions on policies. e,g as Labour grew more right of centre it forced Tories to go further right and that pushes the neo-fascits further along too.

It would be just as bad in the opposite direction as i think that there is a circle of extremism where both extreme L/R are a hairsbreadth apart!!

The growth of left wing activism may actually eventually allow more moderate 'central' mainstream politics.

whitewave Tue 19-Apr-16 08:19:37

There will be no split in the Labour Party.

Jane10 Tue 19-Apr-16 08:54:36

I thought it had split!

rosesarered Tue 19-Apr-16 09:50:51

I have this scene in my head ( from Carry On Cleo) and Corbyn is staggering about with a knife in his back on the floor of the House, crying 'infamy, infamy, they've all got in in for me!'grin

rosesarered Tue 19-Apr-16 09:51:52

And the following week, it could be Cameron doing the same thing.

varian Tue 19-Apr-16 12:11:04

We have an ever widening gulf between left and right in this country. If we ignore the nationalists whose only aim is to break up the UK, we have two very left wing parties - Corbyn's Labour party and the Greens who in many ways are even further to the left, and on the other side the wicked Tories or UKIP.

The only party which you should support if you are not an extremist or a separatist is the Liberal Democrat Party.

Anniebach Tue 19-Apr-16 12:18:15

No Rosesarered, that happened to thatcher

daphnedill Tue 19-Apr-16 12:47:47

varian, I am a lifelong Liberal (later LibDem) supporter, because I had always felt that the party's values were closest to my own. If the UK had anything like the northern European Social Democrat parties, I would have voted for them, but the LibDems were the next best thing. I come from a very Conservatve family. I even know from family history research that my grandparents and great grandparents voted Conservative.

A few years ago, my life was turned upside down. I was ill and, as a result, lost my job and career, my house and my savings. Before then life had been difficult as a single parent with no support from my children's father, but I had coped. Suddenly, I was faced with having to ask for help and I was truly shocked to find out how little there is. Forget all the benefit porn programmes and stories about benefit scroungers. I'm not stupid and I looked at every possibility. Unless I deliberately defrauded the system (which I wasn't prepared to do), there is very little support for people in my situation. Like many others, I thought there was a safety net, but there isn't. I had always been a relatively high earner, so had paid thousands into the system and found this particularly galling, especially when the media was promoting 'shirker versus striver' rhetoric.

As I recovered, I thought more about politics than I ever had done. I realised that I wasn't the only one in my situation and that in some ways I was lucky, because at least I'd had a decent education and had marketable skills.

I voted Labour in the last election for the first time ever. I live in a true blue Conservative constituency (53% voted Conservative), so I knew my vote wouldn't make any difference, but at least it was one more vote in the national total. I will definitely vote Labour again, because it's the only party which can beat the Conservatives. I don't agree with everything Labour says and I don't think Corbyn will make a good PM, although there are some others in the wings. The majority of people in the UK (even in England) didn't vote for the Conservatives, but the opposition is split between various parties.

I dispute that Corbyn is 'far left', but the norm has moved further to the right over the last 30 years. What Corbyn actually says would not have been considered far left 30 years ago. I think we have reached a tipping point (as another thread suggests). Most public service workers have had their pay frozen and conditions have become worse, people can see for themselves that state schools have bigger classes and fewer qualified teachers and that NHS waiting times have become longer. Manufacturing has been destroyed and people are having to cope with the uncertainty of zero hours contracts. Higher education saddles people with lifelong debt. The dream of owning a home has gone for all except the very rich and those who inherit. Inequality is growing. The UK's 'silver' has been sold off, in many cases to foreign bidders. Private individuals are making profits from providing health, education, social care, etc while the services provided are worse. Over the last six years tax breaks have favoured the rich...and so it goes on. Neoliberalism has imploded and we're seeing the consequences.

I think we're at the point where people are seeing that the status quo can't continue. The disputes are about which way the country should go with pressures from both ends of the political spectrum. One way or the other, I think the political scene will be quite different in ten years or so and I think the Labour Party will survive, although it needs to focus on what it stands for.

Tegan Tue 19-Apr-16 13:27:22

Good post daphnedill.

whitewave Tue 19-Apr-16 15:52:01

What I find interesting at the moment as the Labour leadership begins to formulate it plans, like EU policy and economy fiscal responsibility, which are chiming with mainstream Labour policy and even may I whisper Tory policy. As each is announced the opposition is rolled in including the media to annouce "yes, well of course they don't really believe it" How bizarre is that!!!

MamaCaz Tue 19-Apr-16 19:14:28

Ditto what Tegan said: Good post daphnedill.

Iam64 Tue 19-Apr-16 19:20:49

Yes, thanks for your post daphnedill.

TriciaF Tue 19-Apr-16 19:52:49

Ditto from me too.

Anya Tue 19-Apr-16 23:08:41

i think you are over-egging the cake Daphned but I take your point. However it is a political reality that a swing to the far right elicits an equal reaction with a swing to the far left. To deny that means you are denying the reality of what is happening within the Labour Party or all would be sweetness and harmony - which it patently isn't. The Tories too are starting to unravel, but as I pointed out that's not my issue.

Can I bring myself to vote for Labour, as it 'stands' in the local elections? I doubt it, as I don't know what it stands for any more or which way it is headed. This is 2016 - not 30+ years ago, which seemed to be held up as an ideal in your post. Times move on.

But neither can I bring myself to vote for the local conservatives who are, I know for a fact, a bunch of self-serving idiots. So unless the Monster Raving Loonies or another alternative party is standing in the locals I will have to stay at home and not vote.....and I suspect the turn out will be very poor next month.

daphnedill Tue 19-Apr-16 23:16:17

In what way do you think I'm over-egging the cake? I don't accept that I'm exaggerating about what's happening in this country.

I regularly get feeds from 'Momentum' on my Facebook page. I'm not denying what's happening within the Labour Party, but what I read is that people are genuinely suffering from cuts and want an end to so-called 'austerity', which is actually no such thing. Do you disagree that people are suffering?

Maybe you could give details of what you think is happening. I don't think it's all sweetness and light, but nor do I see an imminent takeover by revolutionaries.

daphnedill Tue 19-Apr-16 23:18:23

PS. We had our local elections last year. Independents made mincemeat of the standing Conservatives in this town.

Eloethan Wed 20-Apr-16 01:42:40

Well, I can certainly see what the Conservatives stand for, and I don't like it.

Just a brief update on this government's performance:

Tragedy of ravenous schoolchildren (All Party Parliamentary Group on Hunger as reported in The I 16.4.16)

Paupers' funerals could return, warn MPs (The I 31.3.16)

"Appalling" benefit delays force more poor to use food banks The I 13.4.16)

Betrayal of the North (museum closures) (The I 12.3.16)

One million British workers will soon be on zero-hours contracts (up 100,000/15% in the last year) (The I 9.3.16)

Council homes sell-off "will hit elderly people (The I 4.3.16)

Bed blocking is "a growing problem" (The I 1.3.16)

Price rises outpace earnings in more than a quarter of UK towns (the I 26.2.16)

Warning on rise in homeless sheltering in bins (11 people killed in last 5 years) (Guardian 12.3.16)

Richest 10% benefit the most from tax changes (The I 18.3.16)

Apprenticeships "flatlining" and not helping young (The I 21.3.16)

North "ignored" as flood money goes to South (The I 28.3.16)

Anya What are your "socialist principles" and in what way does the current
Labour Party not represent them?

I think it was you that said there is a cohort of "quiet socialists" on Gransnet. Why are they quiet? Plenty of LibDem/Conservative supporters are very vocal on here and other political threads so why are "quiet socialists" so shy?