European Union in or out

Which government is not elected? I am a bit confused here as I remember voting for Members of the European Parliament on a number of occasions - and it is this ELECTED parliament which makes decisions by voting. There are less Civil servants in Europe that we have in UK.

"Which government is not elected" sums it up for me Welshwife. I am very aware that we do elect MEPs but how much do we know about what is being discussed there, which of our MEPs are deciding what and which party is telling them to do what. Every day we have politics programmes but they seem more interested in who is wearing a tie, who will bend the knee to whom and which interviewer can interview which journalist. If we are not told about the EU Parliament then it is no wonder that those who are not politics geeks - and even those who are - do not know what is happening and even, in some cases, do not believe it is a democracy.

Thanks nigglynellie.

But you, Welshwife, cannot KNOW who represents say...Spain, or Germany, or France...etc, etc, etc. How do you know how they vote and think? Oh you can look up their names and you can find out about them on the internet I am sure, but even our MEPs are not generally recognised. We don't see any body in action nor can we interject or disapprove. Given poor voter turnout I'd be surprised if the majority of Grandparents here were aware of their MEP. MEPs tend to remain quiet whilst taking a huge salary for their European involvement, whatever that may be.

You may be au fait with your MEP Welshwife but I suspect you may be the exception rather than the rule. What goes on in Strasbourg tends to remain in Strasbourg. (Or Brussels.) We get the fallout.

The prerequisite to Turkey becoming a member is to sign up to the ECHR.

I know my MEPs, too. Because some of you do not, does not mean they are any less elected than the UK government. It is this government that cannot agree on what it wants out of Europe, if anything at all.

If you have access to the internet, you have access to the European Parliament.

www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/

This government would like a lot out of Europe but as seen when Cameron came home with nothing they have no hope of getting anything. It will be even worse if we vote IN, Brussels and Angela Merkel will be in charge. Vote OUT and get our country back.

What if we don't want our country back?
What if we are quite happy being part of Europe? Some of us are.
Voting with Cameron and Osborne is going to be hard enough. Voting with Ukippers? No chance.

I said this government can't agree on what it wants because it's only half of the government on Cameron's side. The rest want "our country back", as you put it.

DJ - What if we don't want our country back?
What if we are quite happy being part of Europe? Some of us are.
Voting with Cameron and Osborne is going to be hard enough. Voting with Ukippers? No chance."

Good grief. This is an issue too big for whether you like personalities or not. Someone mentioned a while ago that whatever the outcome of the referendum, this has certainly shaken up politics in this country.

If it soothes you at all DJ, many progressive Left wing bodies including the rail unions Aslef and the RMT, take a staunch Eurosceptic stance in the name of protecting wages. The Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition is also campaigning to get Britain OUT of the EU. They are about as far removed from Farage as you can get. From their campaign

"TUSC is arguing for a LEAVE vote in the June EU referendum. We stand in the tradition of the late Bob Crow, the RMT transport workers' union leader and one of the co-founders of TUSC, who was well known for his support for international workers' solidarity while opposing the EU as a body that was pushing anti-worker and pro-austerity policies."

There you go......

I am not a fan of Boris or Farage but as far as I am concerned they are making the right noises in this debate so I would join them, and many Left wing groups in looking for a better future for Britain.

I was joking, Day6.
I prefer my sources of information to yours.
I will be voting to stay in because I do not wish to tell half my family that they are not important to me, the ones who were born in the EU that I want to stay in.

It's my individual choice to not vote with Farage, Gove and Johnson. They are making the wrong noises as far as I am concerned.

fullfact.org/europe/reciprocal-benefits/

Employment rights from an independent, non-partisan, factchecking charity.
Lots more independent information from the same place, but I am sure that's not what you want. I bet Farage and Johnson argue with them, too.

The prerequisite to Turkey becoming a member is to sign up to the ECHR
Does that mean they will have to stop persecuting and murdering the Kurds whitewave?

"Many of the reasons for the snail-like progress lie in Turkey’s failure to meet the political and economic conditions of entry to the EU. There is also the question of whether the current Turkish government really wishes to join anyway.

Formally, it is committed to eventual membership, but the enthusiasm for European integration that existed when negotiations were launched has long since faded. And there appears to be little appetite to rekindle the enthusiasm. For president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Turkey’s future is far more as a regional actor than as a member of the EU. This was reflected in his recent challenge to the EU: “we’ll go our way, you go yours” and the forced resignation of the country’s more pro-EU prime minister, Ahmet Davutoğlu."

This is interesting. Why would Turkey want to join an institution that it can see collapsing on its doorstep?

Frankly it is highly unlikely that Turkey will gain entry for all sorts of reasons not least the Kurd issue

Why would Turkey want to join an institution that it can see collapsing on its doorstep?
which begs the question 'why would we want to stay in?'

Because we can change it from within? Turkey can do nothing about it.
We are not on Greece's doorstep. We are next to the original countries which are not collapsing.

We can't 'change it from within'. We have no clout whatsoever in the EU, they just tolerate us for their own reasons.

Turkey saw the writing on the wall a long time ago Re joining the eu.
All they saw when they applied to join was 'loadsamoney' then Greece happened and they couldn't back peddle fast enough. I think they will keep pressing for the visa free travel, though.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

ana I think we have greater influence on the EU than the right wing media give us credit for.

With regard to treaty changes, to the 4 basic tenants - this is what they are largely banging on about. Of course if you change these to say for example stop free movement of people, it would negate the entire idea of a single market, as it would put it entirely out of balance.

With regard to other changes in EU law. The U.K. Can along with other nations suggest new or altered changes, which will be presented to Parliament and voted on. If the UK strongly objects to a particular issue is does of course have a veto and can opt out as it has done a number of times. With other areas like the "bent banana" syndrome. This is a happy little game many of the Brexiters like to play, but it bears no comparison to reality.

The most important issue I think with regard to the EU is that the UK's strength does have a balancing and influential effect on the whole of Europe. Our culture and history can bear down on the development of EU law. This together with a balance to German influence and strength is essential in the health of the EU. And Europe as a whole.

The question of what we pay to the EU is another area of contention. What the Brexiters fail to understand is the concept of the single market, which given their background is somewhat surprising.
This then must be looked at as a single unit of trade. The participants set up VAT collection and pay a levy to a central bank. This is then distributed according to agreed need. The idea is to develop and expand markets in all the areas of the EU particularly the poorer areas, in order to provide businesses in all EU countries the advantage of developing their businesses. The idea is to eventually bring these poorer nations to a level equal to the rest and thereby provide a healthy and thriving market.
Clearly it is a concept we in the UK are very familiar with, as it has been applied since 1947, we pay in to a central point and take out when needed. We hope that we never do need it like health and unemployment, but understand the concept nevertheless.
Some areas of industry are seen as important to the EU as a whole -the need to feed ourselves for example, and these have been given special attention.

In or out o the EU, the economy's in a mess: with high debt and low productivity, our problems go far deeper than referendum uncertainty. Ed Conway, economics editor at Sky News.

Yes it is - that is correct. GOs economy is pants, but undoubtedly it is being made worse by the uncertainty of the referendum, - to say it isn't is misunderstanding how markets work. They thrive like children on security, and this is not what they are getting.

Agreed, whitewave. Just think about the alarm caused when the governor of the Bank of England said what he did yesterday. He was warned of markets being in freefall, and told to shut up.
If Brexiters are not sure enough of their ground to accept what he says, without being rude, they ought to take notice of the IMF, who agree with him.

www.wemove.eu/sites/all/modules/civicrm/extern/url.php?u=5710&qid=4365265

This is about Monsanto and Glyphosate.

The decision to re-approve this toxic chemical will be taken on 18 May by the EU. We need to make as much noise as possible before then. We can use our EU membership to stop the spread of this poison. EU citizens can be the underdog hero in this piece. Just because they’re bigger than us, doesn’t mean they’re above the law. Over the last few months public pressure and attention have been working and decision makers are reconsidering their positions.

We would not have any say in it if we left the EU.

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/12/european-parliament-votes-against-china-market-economy-status-uk-steel-industry

The EU is doing for steel what the UK government will not do. Conservative MEPs did not back it.
If we left the EU this would not happen.

Steel and coal were the first industries identified as fundamental to the EU economy. This will always be protected by our single market from unfair trading practice like Chinese plan to flood he market.

This has not of course prevented nation states to close their coal and steel industries if they so choose. Thatcher of course is a prime example, we now import nearly all our coal requirements.