European Union in or out

One minute we're led to believe that we are an insignificant little Island on the edge of Europe with no weight or influence anywhere, and the next, if we leave the EU we will be responsible for sending Europe and probably the whole of the developed world into an economic downward spiral to disaster! Which is it? truthfully?!!!!!!!!

Neither. Somewhere in between those extremes. Nobody knows.

Some of you may want to watch this video: Brexit, the movie.

"I will be voting to stay in because I do not wish to tell half my family that they are not important to me, the ones who were born in the EU that I want to stay in."

What strange thing to say. I have friends and family in France and Italy.

They'll remain my friends and family whether we stay in the EU or leave it. Why are you portraying them as somehow cut off from you if we make a political decision about the future of Britain.

Are you trying to suggest you'll never see them again? How absurd.

You make it sound like we are about to commit an act of betrayal by leaving.

Well Brexiters will have us all believe that they know better than all the experts advising us to remain. But f we look at individual Brexiters history what does it tell us about their knowledge and whether they can possibly know better than so many experts.

Gove? Ask the teachers how well he has done.
Johnson? Ask Londoners how well he did. Listen to the tripe emanating from him.
IDS How well did he do? Hmmm.
Patel ? Not sure she has done anything worth a mention.
Davis - hmm
Far age - enough said.

The point is that if these people had a 10th if the knowledge lined up advising us to vote remain, then it might be worth giving them some consideration. But experience tells us that nothing they have achieved or not in the past qualifies them to know better than the worlds experts. I hope their arrogance is not mistaken for knowledge.

It appears to me and many others that Britain has little clout in the EU. I think Ana recently mentioned that. We abide by the rules and regulations whether they are to our liking or not. I most definitely want us to leave. The more I read, the more I think our remaining in the EU would be madness.

The fact that Cameron failed in reform speaks volumes for our lack of power. The EU we joined has changed beyond all recognition. It's not as though we are leaving NATO.

The EU has become FAR more than the trading bloc we used to think it was. It is SO much more. Now it's become a common government, run by a common bureaucracy which is answerable to a common court system. We do as we are told. GB is bigger than most successful countries which trade independently and has the 5th largest economy in the world. Why then do we have so little power in the EU, which is going to continue to be made up of more and more very poor countries in eastern Europe?

Why are we contributing to HELP them join the EU? Is that actually solving the problems of those countries by allowing their people to travel to the west? How exactly do we benefit from that? Aren't we just increasing interdependency rather than solving the problems of these countries?

Independently, out of the EU, we could aid Eastern Europe with the building of schools and hospitals with the proviso that governments must comply with rules and guidelines regarding welfare, equality, democracy and an understanding of future trade and prosperity for their country. Allowing vast numbers of poor to relocate to places where there are welfare systems causes more problems than it solves for the host nation. Not only that, in protest far right groups are springing up all over Europe as a result. Who wants that?

Why should our infrastructure have to creak because so many more people are in need of education, medicine and support systems? All people, no matter where they are from deserve decent lives. The liberal conscience might be soothed by mass immigration but the two week wait to see the doctor, crowded A&E centres, transport systems struggling to cope, schools dealing with language and literacy problems as well as over-crowded classrooms, overcrowding on our roads, and social housing waiting lists stretched to ridiculous limits doesn't seem good value for the taxpayers contribution. It is unworkable long term when the EU is driving austerity budgets and keeping down wages.

Should we be using up green-belt land because a family in eastern Europe is in desperate need of a house and services nearby? Some people would argue the countryside doesn't matter. Wouldn't it make more sense for us to contribute to a building programme in eastern Europe and for that family to remain in a place familiar to them and their cultural values? We can help and we should help, but free movement around Europe of unskilled and poorer people to more prosperous countries because they are able to use their services isn't the answer. It's unsustainable. It's not the fault of the people who deserve a better way of life. It is the fault of an EU bureaucracy which hasn't thought through the implications of free movement around the continent. They Syrian refugee crisis was a test of how difficult it can be to implement a large scale and cohesive re-housing plan.

We could make life better for disadvantaged people if we were out of the EU. It is achievable, but slowly and much of it is to do with education, proper governance and money being spent where it is needed.

Right now, what exactly, culturally and economically does, say, Leeds, have in common with Athens? Not a lot. Why do we continue to PAY to be in such an arrangement? It's economic madness.

We SHOULD have a social conscience, most definitely, and we can aid and influence the fortunes of poorer nations once we get out of Europe and think about other ways to make best use of the BILLIONS of pounds we contribute to the EU every week. It is achievable, but slowly. We do have to think about the quality of life everywhere, including at home.

"The most important issue I think with regard to the EU is that the UK's strength does have a balancing and influential effect on the whole of Europe. Our culture and history can bear down on the development of EU law. "

It seems patently clear to me that our culture and history has absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on present day Europe. We are dealing with the Europe of now, not one of the past. Much of western Europe has shared values.

Sadly our history and culture is being ignored it would seem in the effort to turn Europe into a state where what existed and was valued before is slowly vanishing.

If the EU was a transfusion service, we'd be donating blood and feeling weaker, whilst bolstering the health of other bodies. Oh, and we'd be paying lots and lots of money too before being allowed to give blood.

day6 I am afraid that we will have to disagree with regard to UK influence. You don't seem to quite understand the way the EU works. The vast majority of laws passed by the EU have done so with the UKs agreement. If we strongly object to something then we have usually negotiated an opt out.

You talk as if the EU is something done to us, when in fact we are the EU and so is Germany, France etc. The EU is us as part of a trading union, which sets rules, standards etc in common for all its members.

The rest of your argument is not based on good evidence.

Too much to read as other things to do Day6 but did notice you are suggesting we leave because Great Britain "has the 5th largest economy in the world". Just prior to entering the EU we were known as the sick man of Europe and it has been in the last 40 years we have grown to having the 5th (although some say 6th) largest economy. Mmm now isn't that while we have been in the EU.

"You talk as if the EU is something done to us, when in fact we are the EU and so is Germany, France etc. The EU is us as part of a trading union, which sets rules, standards etc in common for all its members. "

Yes, I am well aware. Aren't we all? Isn't that stating the bleedin' obvious, as the saying goes?

The main thrust of the IN or OUT discussion is if we in fact want this for Britain.

About trade deals and not having to be in the EU to have them.

That clip has John Mills from @labourleave talking about his company, JML, which exports stuff all over the world.

day6 oh! I did not understand that from your post.

I am quite interest n your stance as it seems to reiterate a lot of the left wing that has been argued over the years.

The rest of your argument is not based on good evidence.

Sigh How many times do you have to batter down the OUT comments with that standard remark? Yawn, yawn.

I suspect the regular group posting to remain are armed with every single pamphlet/law book and article written in favour of the EU. It sometimes seems that there is an automatic churning out of favourable documentation/legalese and I am most surprised that you have all this to hand.

That's fine, all well and good but I'd argue that for every advantage membership of the EU has given us, there are many, many more disadvantages.....and I'll retain that view.

You have a condemnation strategy for every emotive post.....which is OK, but it's pretty noticeable very little seems to be written from the heart. I'd have a lot more respect for your arguments if they didn't sound like the in camp's standard printed response.

By my own admission I state my feelings, my thoughts.....not direct quotes very often, or a million and one links, as seems the strategy of most of the remain group, and I make no apologies for doing it either.

I am reasonably well travelled and read too and I am educated and have worked most of my life in multicultural inner cities. I am not the Little Englander Brexit caricature scoffed at and ridiculed by those who want to stay in the EU.

I care about what happens to the place in which I live, and I care very much about the people in my life. I also care about values which I hold dear, most of them cultural, derived because I've been brought up in England. Should I apologise for that? You won't find French people, Spanish people, Russian people or Turkish people apologising for their cultural beliefs. Why should Brits? It's not a crime.

If our own experience of something isn't good, should we just shut up and put up?

This referendum will give the majority of people the chance to vote on their gut instincts...that's how they'll be guided, by instinct and by what they've seen, experienced, read or understood. Unless you are embroiled in EU mechanisms, it's a massive topic to have in-depth understanding of, and it would seem to me, one or two Gransnetters may have every bit of pro-EU literature to hand. I find it strange.

If like me people feel being OUT of the EU is the best way for them to vote, then that's what they'll do, and throwing millions of pieces of biased literature at them which favours EU membership isn't going to persuade them otherwise.

In the meantime please feel free to criticise everything I write as 'not being helpful' or 'lacking understanding' because it seems par for the course.

If someone like me is always wrong, according to the in-camp, how on earth do you view the ordinary man or woman on the street who isn't interested in any of the jargon-based, wordy literature or broadsheet newspaper articles?

I've read lots of stuff produced by both sides and my reasons to vote OUT haven't been changed. Most people will vote as they see fit, in their own interests, and good for them. Sometimes instinct and experience is the best guide.

The 'facts' you claim to be producing in response to absolutely everything are not convincing in the face of the disadvantages we also have to accept if we remain in the EU.

So your argument is based on feelings?

Well said Day6 I'm sure I speak for many on here who love reading your posts.
And not a blue link in sight.

Your reading comprehension skills are working whitewave, but you missed the bit below and although I am not into a link for every situation, I read quite a lot (understatement) too. I did write

"By my own admission I state my feelings, my thoughts"

but you must have missed this bit

"I've read lots of stuff produced by both sides and my reasons to vote OUT haven't been changed."

Petra, thanks very much! Much appreciated.

Sometimes I feel like a lone voice. I get that the political threads aren't the most popular on Gransnet, but it's good to know my efforts here aren't in vain!

day6 I have no leaflets to hand whatsoever. When I argue I am using my own thoughts, based on what I have read and my honest heartfelt beliefs. The fact that I do not use emotive language is quite deliberate, as I believe it adds nothing to an objective argument. However, my arguments are based on evidence wherever possible as without this my argument would be built on sand.

Any factual argument you put forward based on evidence would not be seen as biased, and I would hope that you were open minded enough to consider arguments based on evidence but disagreeing with your stance in a similar way.
No one is saying you should shut up of course not.

Why on earth would you find its strange that some gransneters have read about the topic In depth? By your own admission it is a huge and complicated subject and to my mind they are to be commended as wanting to vote In the most informed way possible. Of course there will be those voting who haven't a clue what to vote but will go by their gut instinct, however that is true in all areas of life. People who lack the advantage of being able to look closely at a subject will vote with their gut. However as retired folk we are in the happy position to have time to look at this subject in depth if we wish.
Some people choose to live their life in ignorance, others tackle a subject with vigour.

Day6 your not a lone voice. You put it so well that I for one think " she's posted everything I want to say"
I think that most people have given up on this thread because most of what's written is not their own opinions (unlike yours) and then there's the blue links which most people don't read.

Day6, you are incredibly rude to people who disagree with you. "Your reading comprehension skills are working... " That is just plain condescending.

I have read lots of stuff produced by both sides. I have also read lots of stuff by people who try to be dispassionate, like fullfact and The UK in a changing Europe or www.ukandeu.ac.uk which produces independent research.

"Most research studies, published over the past 20 years, which have tried to estimate the costs and benefits of the UK’s membership of the EU, have come to relatively similar conclusions. That is, despite differences in their methodology and the number of variables they include in their analysis, that there will either be a net cost or a net benefit of between 1-2% of UK GDP.

The Treasury’s 200-page report into the economic effect of a Brexit is therefore unusual in its prediction of a cost between 3.4% and 9.5% of GDP. The report, however, is based on a set of simplifying assumptions about the effects of Brexit that may very well not come to pass in the event of a Leave vote.

For most of the academic and policy studies – when taking into account issues relating to trade, foreign direct investment, migration, regulation and our net contributions to the EU budget – the immediate effects are not likely to be particularly large, either way."

This is from one report I've read. I do not pretend to have read all the research reports. However, what it does mean is that whether we vote in or out, there is very little monetary advantage or disadvantage, and nobody knows anyway.

Therefore there is no reason not to go with gut instinct, and mine tells me that my family will be most upset if I tell them that the UK is more important than any other part of the EU, which is what Brexiters are saying. I prefer to agree with my family rather than you, Day6.

petra you are wrong -what I write on here is absolutely my own thoughts and opinions. Where on earth is the evidence to say that people who disagree with you are not using their own opinion?

Day6, have you read the thread that whitewave started on the EU, long before we knew the date? Perhaps if you did, you might appreciate her knowledge a bit more.

Most of the fervent Remainers seem to have made their minds up beforehand, some for family reasons, and are just putting out whatever information/propaganda they can to support their opinion. I don't include you in that group whitewave but it does get tiresome when anyone against staying in gets sneered at for not having concrete facts to hand, when the truth is no one knows what the outcome would be in either case.

"Some people choose to live their life in ignorance, others tackle a subject with vigour."

Wow. A huge spectrum. And those in between, who are neither ignorant or passionate about finding out, what of them? Are their opinions worthless? There may be snippets they can contribute which add to a debate.

All or nothing at all has never been my approach to inclusion.