European Union in or out

?

In your post, daphnedill Fri 06-May-16 13:15:20, you said: "I have read many posts and articles about the EU, both for and against, and I still haven't seen one coherent argument which sways me to want to leave. When I look at the credentials of the people who want the UK to leave, I am more convinced than ever that I do not want a country led by these people".

The last part of this suggested to me that you think the personalities running the Brexit campaign, or those arguing in its favour, were as important a factor in your decision as the arguments they and their opposing numbers in the Bremain camp are giving. I interpolated from that supposition of mine that you don't disapprove of the personalities running the Bremain campaign and would be allright with some of them running the country.

OK (I mean, is that comprehensible) so far

Who's Nellist, btw?

I'm sorry I didn't post clearly enough, dd. Give us a minute....

thatbags,

I still don't get it. In fact, it's reinforced my view. I have little sympathy with Nellist's views.

So please explain!

If he isn't he bloody should be or he's in the wrong job.

Don't you think Corbyn is "lining up" to run the country just as much as you suppose Johnson or Gove are?

So what? It applies to both sides equally, I'm sure.

I'm getting the feeling that some people think political expedience, which I think all politicians with any power at all (i.e. Corbyn, Cameron, Johnson, Khan and everyone in between or orbiting around them as satellites) have to act with political expedience far more than is comfortable to their principles.

Because life isn't made up of simple black and white/right or wrong issues.

It's not a crime and yet some posters on gransnet frequently post as if it were, at least when the politicians they dislike do it. It's OK if it's done by someone they approve of. I think that's an immature attitude.

No but undoubtedly they are lining up to do so.

And the other point is that just because someone is leading a campaign on the EU referendum does not mean they'll be "running the country" afterwards.

Actually, to give him political credit, I think Corbyn may well have decided thst, politically speaking, supporting Bremain is the right thing to do. I wasn't criticising his decision, just pointing out that what's sauce for the goos is sauce for the gander too.

As my posts pointed out.

So why be so anti people who are on "the other side" whichever side it is?

It's making it a personalities issue that is the silly bit, as my posts point out.

Well if we look at an example. Say you prefer one particular idea to another and have done to the best of you knowledge for a good few years. Along comes some persuasive arguments that convinces you to change your mind. Would you then look at yourself as having lived a lie for the first part of your life? No of course not!

You have lived a certain way because you genuinely believed that was the right thing to do.

Nothing wrong in changing your mind Cameron and his motley crew are doing so on a daily bases. There are so many U Turns they are spinninglike tops.

Just have a think... it might be possible, don't you think, that Brexit voters are not keen on some of the people on the Brexit side either, but that it's not about people to them, it's about issues like democracy and accountability. Disagreement about thr issues is fine but disagreement about the people on either side of the debate is childishly silly.

If you can bring people's "credentials" into the argument, you can't complain if someone else does too. Facetious? No, just annoyed at the silliness, perhaps.

It's relevant, dd, because you mentioned that "looking at the credentials of" Brexiters is something that put you off.

Corbyn jolly well ought to be a reluctant Europhile. Otherwise his entire political Euro-sceptic career has been a lie.

Was your last post facetious, Day6? I think it probably was, because I really don't see how it's relevant.

Day6, I am aware of Dave Nellist. He is a Trotskyist, who was expelled from the Labour Party. What's his opinion got to do with me? Confused.

Lots of Turks in Denmark, too, daphne. In fact they are the largest ethnic group in Denmark, although being encouraged to go back to Turkey.

daphnedill - I am very surprised that you aren't aware of Dave Nellist, uber leftie, and chair of the TUSC. (Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition.)

He wants OUT and has always represented working class people. He believes Jeremy Corbyn is a reluctant Europhile. 'Corbyns EU stand doesn't convince.'

www.tusc.org.uk/17222/23-04-2016/dave-nellist-on-sky-news-jeremy-corbyns-eu-stand-doesnt-convince

PS. Maybe your whole post was facetious, but your main fear seems to be that the UK will be overwhelmed by millions of Turks.

It's more likely Turks would want to go to Germany, where there are already approximately 3 million people with Turkish ethnic origin. The German Economic Miracle of the 1950s and 1960s was created with Turkish sweat. As the UK hardly has a manufacturing industry, it's unlikely to be an attractive destination.

I have to say that I find it ironic that BREXITers accuse people of wanting to remain as being fearful, when the whole BREXIT campaign is built on paranoia.

Day6,

Were you being facetious when you wrote "workers throughout the UK will have their rights and employment opportunities strengthened by leaving the UK.?

If you weren't being facetious, I wonder if you'd care to explain.

Michael Gove (a prominent BREXITer as you know) has already said that his ambition would be to abolish many workers' right which were achieved through the EU. TTIP, which BREXITers mainly endorse alongside the Cameron wing of the Conservative Party, would have the same effect of diminishing workers' right.

Therefore, I'm baffled. How would leaving the EU strengthen workers' rights?

If Vote Leave campaigners have said anything about strengthening rights, I've obviously missed it, so I'm sure you'd be happy to fill me in.

OK. Understood.

I try to offer facts in addition to opinions.

Corbyn is a sort of 'power that be' and he made it very clear that he didn't hink the EU is perfect.

Goodness daphne I was talking about the "powers that be" not anyone on here. On here it's just people offering their opinions surely.