European Union in or out

I agree about the treatment of Greece but when it joined the rules regarding the Euro were massaged to say the least to allow it to join - and the same for other Eastern states. I think that Brussels has learned a bit of a lesson with that and hopefully will not be so careless another time.

But I have yet to see any out reason which would convince me to vote leave.

Have fun - off to ... Europe?

York and surrounding area weather looks terrible!

York is wonderful in any weather- enjoy.

Rubbish here too, if it helps. Grey and dingy, freezing cold and it even snowed, on and off. Ah well... Is there a nice spa nearby?

Eloethan - yet again you sum it up so well but I imagine for all those that agree with you many of us are left not really knowing which way we should jump. I know we have some weeks in which to make up our minds but I am not sure anything will change or be unveiled to make the best answer clearer.

Up until about a week ago - with what I saw a the collapse of any real union among the EU countries (your second para) - I really thought events might "take this cup from me" or rather all of us but I am now beginning to doubt it as we seem to have got used to the collapses and their effects and closed our collective minds to the vision of how one part of the EU treats another.

However the vision the "leavers" offer is both unprepossessing and less than rational, so where does that leave us?

Do you like trains, whitewave? The National Railway Museum calls itself the biggest umbrella in the country.

Back to Brexit, Boris is being very helpful to those who want to stay in.

tompride.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/african-advocacy-group-quits-brexit-campaign-over-very-alarming-comments-by-boris-johnson/

I thought I had typed this before so apologies if I am repeating myself but I can't see it. Generally I try to see the politics not the man but I actually trust Boris about the same as I would trust Rob Titchener. (apologies to none Archers fans)

The EU didn't learn a thing from the debacle of Greece joining the EU. I was living in Bulgaria when they joined. The corruption of the stolen Euros was an obscenity.
The same will happen all over again when Serbia, Bosnia Herzegovina and Albania join. Don't forget everyone, if we stay in the EU this will be YOUR money lining the pockets of these crooks. Sorry, I meant to say, government officials.

Boris is such an opportunist- and his comments on Obama were nothing short of a disgrace.

Our money lines the pockets of our own government, so what's the difference? At least the EU can try and keep them in check.

Ah, perhaps that is the difference.
Those who prefer the UK Government and those who prefer the EU. How anyone can prefer the EU one is beyond me, but prefer them they seem to.

[I realise there is at least one post refering to me upthread, I may get to that tomorrow].

Just a quick post before I shut down.
Relating to the level of benefits paid to EU migrants. I can remember being jolly surprised at how little was in fact paid to migrants when we looked at the EU before. So I cannot think that the Daily Mail is correct. I think Daphne is looking at it.

The Guardian, 19th jan 2015:

nemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK.

I prefer our own.Government to EU obieone
An elected Government by the people for (British) the people
British interests first
A sovereignty not an unelected (by the people) President

But it isnt just EU nationals claiming benefits here.

Post to granjura.

Quite Cherrytree59.

Soemone upthread said which is more important to the Brexits. Sovereignty, economics or immigration.
I was going to say sovereignty. Then I thought economics may just trump it. But then there is immigration, which wasnt even an issue a couple of years ago, so there is now that issue on top.

Personally I think immigration will swing the vote to an out. Many people dont like to say what they really think about it[I am not meaning gransnetters who are quite vocal one way or the other].

Immigration has always been an issue to little Englanders.

Even little Englanders who are married to foreigners.

Eh? Who elected the sovereign?

Cherrytree, I voted in the elections for my MEP. Didn't you?

'But it isnt just EU nationals claiming benefits here.'

True. British nationals claim benefits.

What's your point?

There are obviously different interpretations of sovereignty.
Sovereignty and democracy are not the same, although some people seem to conflate the two.

Canada, New Zealand and Australia aren't sovereign nations.

I think it's a word which has been dragged out of a dictionary and dusted off for this campaign. People don't seem to know what it means.

Obione, I understand what you are saying. But how are you going to stop it.
Perhaps we could borrow Trump's idea of building a wall all around the UK. At the moment, it is our European partners who are stopping illegal immigrants coming over, and who allow the UK to have border control staff in France to do that too.

Our European partners know that the immigrants want to come to the UK- so once we are no longer partners- do you really think they will keep them there, at such inconvenience and cost to them- Now they have to do so, as it is part of the deal.

The UK coast lines are long and very close to France, Belgium and Holland, and not that far from Danemark. I mean, you can swim across the Channel. How would you stop them?

Reciprocal agreements, partnerships, like marriages and families- always mean a degree of loss of independence, call it Sovereignty- and you always have to weigh the pros and cons. We will still continue to elect our MPs and Prime Minister- and they will still negotiate on our behalf. Many countries do say that the UK has a strange form of democracy, due to the First past the Post system which totally ignores a vast % of the population, sometimes the numerical majority- that seems totally bizarre to other democratic countries- and so is an unelected Chamber with so much influence (the Lords)... but that is the British way, and no-one else can decide for the British that it should be changed.

If people are bringing immigration up again please can someone explain to me how we will cope if the French stop cooperating with us and open the camps in Calais allowing the occupants to make their way over here? We have a working arrangement at the moment but no guarantee it will continue if we leave.

Theresa May (a Remainer so far) was talking about immigration recently. She thinks that the current EU expansionist approach (admitting Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbis, Albania and Turkey) is not a good idea. She said: "Do we really think now is a good time to contemplate a land border between the EU and countries like Iran, Iraq, and Syria?"