European Union in or out

No - I worded that wrongly!! It's not enough to think yes. I personally will be voting out as there's not a hope in hell that we're going to be listened to.

Do you really think the world will listen to us more, a small isolated island- if we are not part of EU? Really?

I now think that changes are more likely within the EU than ever before. The powers that be in the EU have had a bit of a surprise with UK having a referendum and other countries watching to see how it goes as they are thinking along the same lines. Junker has admitted that changes are needed and this may well be what was needed to bring them to fruition.
With the EU, even as it is now, we have a good idea of where we are going. If we leave we have no real idea - everyone in UK will have a different idea and it will take some time to have plans in place. All the time this is happening Putin will be sitting and watching and rubbing his hands with glee - a fractured EU is exactly what he wants and then he can start an annexation programme again and there will be little to stop him.
We have already let foreign companies in to build some of our infrastructure and sell us power we badly need - what happens if that is cut? We are not self sufficient so need close friends. We no longer have a manufacturing base and it would take a generation to get back to producing anything much - meanwhile we will watch the services we are at the moment trading with EU move to mainland Europe

What's to stop the powers that be in the EU deciding that nothing needs changing after all, if the UK votes to remain and other countries decide against a referendum?

Boris Johnson said Cameron got two thirds of diddly squat in his negotiations with the EU. Does anyone in their right mind think if we vote in things with change, Brussels will have even more control over us.

If the EU 'club' is working so well what can be made of the Austrian Government passing stage 1 to implement a tougher Asylum Law and creating a 'migrant fence' at the Brenner Pass , a crossing between Austria and Italy.

Days of protests/riots have taken place in France over the French Government Labour Reform .

The EU is being 'played' brilliantly by Turkish President Erdogan. He says give me more money , they say sure, how much .. He says jump , they say how high. His demand for Turkish Citizens to have Visa Free Travel is going to come back and bite Europe on it's backside. Even Merkel is putting her credibility on the line by allowing freedom of speech to be killed off as she has cleared the way for German Comedian , Jan Bohmermman to be prosecuted for insulting Erdogan. The levels the EU are going to over Turkey is preposterous.

Sweden and Denmark have introduced border checks because of the migrant crisis. The Schengen Agreement is teetering on the edge.

Greece will quite possibly be the next Euro problem as it is looking likely to default in July and the Italian Banking system could add further pressure on the Euro Zone countries .

I am not raising these issues as a persuasion to vote ' OUT ' but I find the consistent praise for the EU and the view if we stay in the status quo will remain the same, we will be safer at odds with the reality of what is happening throughout Europe..

So right Ana and Firecracker !!

So you are going to vote out, are you, POGS?

People have to remember we will always be European.

We are not leaving the continent, nor are we making enemies. we are merely deciding whether we want to be part of an undemocratic, corrupt body based overseas which has the power and ability to change things in the UK, whether it's in our interests or not.

It's two way traffic as well. For everything we (dubiously) 'lose' by leaving the EU, we are able to reconstruct to our liking without restrictions or veto coming from Brussels or Strasbourg. We will decide who comes and goes, which has to be better for us in terms of the terrorist risk, safety, savings and the strain on our town and city services if the EU expands, which it is about to. We'll be able to allow people from all over the world with the skills we need into the UK, when before they were refused. We'll also be able to set up our own trade agreements, globally, and expand the enormous footing we have in the UK already in terms of business markets. London is a massive player.

We won't shrivel up and wither away if we leave the EU. The in campaign paints a picture of us acquiring European enemies.

We'll remain European. We are one of the EU's top contributors. We'll save billions from ending our membership. Germany and France are frightened by the thought of us leaving and taking our contributions with us. Our exit will weaken the EU, without doubt, but if it leads to the people of European countries also having a say as to whether they want to be part of the EU or not, then we are probably doing them a favour. Democracy in action. Angela Merkel is very unpopular in Germany right now.

The 'in campaign' is based on fear. I am so surprised many are supporting a body which profits so many fat-cats and penalises so many ordinary people. Fat cat bosses are hating the thought of losing all the cheap European labour they rely on to boost their profits and personal power. We can still have whom we choose enter the UK to fill any skills gaps, but the difference is, workers from Europe will have to apply for job vacancies.

Open doors allowing all and sundry to come and go at will has been a disaster in terms of security....for all of Europe...for the people of Europe. If free passage is a a good thing, why hasn't Obama introduced it in the USA? Why are there HUGE checking queues and armed guards at every USA airport? Why is the Mexican border, gateway to South America so well guarded and armed by US forces? Security matters.

As for Putin....he is used as a threat too by the in campaign. See above. Made me smile. Remember, we are likely to ally with any country threatened by Putin, and they'll want our allegiance too. We have the power and armed forces and, whether it's a good or a bad thing I'm not sure, we always have the friendship of the USA too.

We won't be isolated if we leave the EU. We'll remain the strong and powerful little island we've always been, but we'll be in charge of our destiny, not the faceless, unelected bureaucrats of the Union's power bases. We'll adjust.

If we remain, we lose the chance to regroup and determine our own way forward. There will be a period of adjustment, but huge savings too. I do hope we leave and start putting right in the UK so many things that are broken.

Our focus should be at home, not abroad...and that doesn't make us little islanders, insular and racist, as the In campaign would have us believe.

What gives you that impression Durhamjen?

I have ' repeatedly ' posted I am undecided and my post was quite clear I made references not to imply an 'OUT' vote.

I am not interested in who is or who is not voting one way or the other but discussing/debating the subject.

We will need to contribute almost as much to the EU coffers if we wish to trade with them and also accept free European migration. We will also need to abide by all the rules for food production, safety etc etc. I cannot see how much here it is going to save us in money terms or how we will no longer need to abide by the rules of the EU. Surely it is better to remain inside the Union and have some say in what the rules are etc. or have I completely misunderstood and the out camp do not intend us to trade with the EU at all to keep the migrants out - that is what it would come to to choose ourselves who comes freely into UK.
The amount we would be trading with other countries outside the EU would be very small compared to the trade done with the EU. Some countries/companies might not find it really worthwhile to bother. What about the jobs we will lose if head offices and companies move to EU countries - cheaper labour than UK too. If we lose the high earning Europeans that work in London etc and if they do need to return to mainland Europe how will we make up for the lost taxes they pay?
France has always had restlessness in the workforce - nothing new there. But I do in fact agree with the air traffic controllers who are protesting on the grounds of air safety - the idea is to have one massive Air traffic control centre serving the whole of the European airspace - a recipe for disaster as local issues that arise will not necessarily be seen. As UK aircraft will presumably still use the same flight paths that change would affect UK too.

You do not say anything good about the EU, POGS.
You do not say on the one hand this, on the other hand that.
It's all negative about the EU.

Day6, did you not vote for your MEP? I did, and lots of others did.
That makes it democratic, or as democratic as the UK government.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-democracy/

How appropriate. Just been sent these by Fullfact.

POGS - I find the consistent praise for the EU and the view if we stay in the status quo will remain the same, we will be safer at odds with the reality of what is happening throughout Europe..

Interesting post Pogs.

The instability and unrest all over Europe, plus the new leverage Turkey has, with its appalling human rights history, really worries me.

If Merkel is banning the views of critical comedians, restricting free speech then all is not well. Austria's borders are being fortified, for a reason.

The EU is a simmering political pot...and it's on the verge of boiling over. As a land mass, it's in difficulty.

So many countries making up the Union are experiencing massive internal crises of confidence in the EU.

Economic and personal profit seem to be at the basis of remaining, but the ordinary people on the streets, all over Europe are becoming disenchanted and worried.....It's not a happy Union at street level....and those with power, in their ivory towers, in cosseted positions, counting the membership fees are nowhere to be heard. Meanwhile, the barricades are going up, free speech is being curtailed and Turkey has us over a barrel.

OUT. Definitely. While we have the chance.

Just out of interest Day6, why are your European bureaucrats always "faceless". Would you recognise domestic bureaucrats in the street? Do you mean Civil Servants? Or something else?

Day6, did you not vote for your MEP? I did, and lots of others did.
That makes it democratic, or as democratic as the UK government.

I could name you my MEP....How many represent the UK? How many do you know? How many have long political standing?

Oh these things we can look up. I could easily find out the answers to all those questions and throw loads of links your way DJ. Gawd bless the internet.

What I do remember is the Kinnocks, who became extremely wealthy and were also connected to the fraud and mismanagement of MEP/EU coffers.

HEADLINE : (From the Guardian, just in case it matters.) www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/27/expenses-meps-european-parliament

"MEPs can claim hundreds of thousands of pounds each year in expenses – without showing a single receipt."

"Meanwhile, MEPs have been quietly clocking up hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in expenses without so much as showing a receipt.

"And the perks are astonishing. On top of a basic salary of £83,282 a year (representing a huge pay rise for UK MEPs from June onwards), £41,573 in "transition payments" when they leave office, and pension rights of up to £30,000 for a single five-year term, MEPs can claim an enormous £363,000 a year in expenses – not a penny of which requires a receipt."

More:

"Jens Holm, one MEP campaigning to reform the system, tells how he naively went to present receipts for his travel expenses when he first arrived in Brussels, only to be told off by the European parliament's secretariat, who said: "We're not interested in your receipts". In other words, MEPs can spend their allowances on holidays, duck ponds, moats, mortgages or whatever takes their fancy, safe in the knowledge that neither the dreaded media nor taxpayers will ever find out.

Such a system clearly invites widespread abuse, as has been confirmed by a series of reports. For instance, one damning report that MEPs voted to keep secret revealed that one MEP had paid his entire staff allowance — £183,776 a year — to a suspected relative. Other MEPs sign in early in the morning to claim their £259 daily allowance, only to dash straight off for a long weekend."

I assume such loopholes have now been closed, because this was from a few years ago, but erm.....just how are MEPs accountable?

I hear very little from mine.

Uh oh!

It's really interesting the regular IN brigade (you know who they are) post LOADS just after anyone wanting out posts.

Could be that mass-posting makes the OUT posts disappear....go off the front page. Loads of questions are thrown down too....as a distraction, as a way of changing the course of discussion.

Just a theory...but be aware people, they are in the wings. Watch it happen. It's almost like an orchestrated political campaign. I think an alarm bell must sound somewhere. It's very strange.

I might have to do reposts all over the place.

Durhamjen

You are determined to make this personal, yet again.

What do you think of the points I raised?

Good grief, that entire last post smacks of platinum plated paranoia!
I would not know where to start but am reminded of the Cold War panic- mongering about "Reds under the beds"
Nobody is aiming to distract or derail the topic, but you seem to subscribe to that old saying "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you"!

Not yours POGS, (X-ed posts), I was talking to Day 6!

Could be that mass-posting makes the OUT posts disappear....go off the front page. Loads of questions are thrown down too....as a distraction, as a way of changing the course of discussion

Just a theory...but be aware people, they are in the wings. Watch it happen. It's almost like an orchestrated political campaign. I think an alarm bell must sound somewhere. It's very strange

I think if you are going to use language like "faceless bureaucrats", "ivory towers", "free speech is being curtailed" you need to be able to explain exactly what you mean.
No orchestrated campaign, just a request for clarification.

LOL paranoia indeed- incredible.

As Mamie says, MEPs are duly and democratically elected. I always knew who my local ones were, and met some of them personally. If you choose not to vote, and choose not to get to know who your MEPs are and what they stand for- then I'd say you've only got yourself to blame, really- sorry to say.

how do I get to meet my MEP?

I do know my Councillors, MP but as for the MEPs - they are invisible