Ken Livingstone

granjura, as you asked me personally .

I find comments such 'this is all manufactured ' , 'can't help feeling sorry for him' , and the belief ' all he can be accused of is tactlessness', ' a ranting old labourite with no power ', ' what should Livingstone apologise for', comments that are of the opinion Livingstone has 'said nothing wrong'.

Another thing. This did not all kick off with Lord Levi as has been said. The story re Anti Semetic behaviour in the Labour Party started over the Oxford Student Union allegations of Anti Semetic behaviour by guess who?, Labour Party members themselves not the right wing press, not the Tories , it has been all the way a predominantly Labour on Labour issue and has festered ever since. More and more 'stories' and 'suspensions' of Labour Party members have followed We have been talking about this issue on Gransnet from the middle of March !

Yes, quite. Labour people are as concerned, or more concerned, about anti-semitism within their Party, as any right-wing owned media. And so they should be. I have read at least two articles in so-called right-wing newspapers on the subject which were written by Labour Party members.

Are you saying that he is anti-semetic pogs?

Tbh, not interested in either Kaufman and his family history, or Jimmy Carter.
My post was referring to POGs , 'you couldn't make it up' comment, which I entirely agree with.
All the deflecting going on is amusing.

Giving fact clearly and directly linked to the issues being discussed is not what I would call 'deflecting' imho.

I could never feel sorry for Ken Livingstone. We lived in the GLC area in 1981 when his manipulation and shenanigans ended up with him leader in what seemed to be a most undemocratic fashion.

sorry, that was neither clear nor directly linked to the issues being discussed.
However, one cannot cast aside views of the man formed all those years ago.

thatbags sadly I don't get the impression from some on here, that they are at all concerned about anti-semitism within the Labour Party.Directing blame elsewhere and denial and conspiracy theories abound.

POGS lists a number of Labour MPs who have expressed concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party. anniebach points out that they are all Blairites.

I take this to be implying that they are motivated by anti-Corbyn sentiment, rather than by any belief that there may be an anti-semitism problem in the Labour Party, with the further suggestion that Blairites will say anything to discredit the Corbynites.

I find it hard to distinguish this sort of thought pattern from blanket condemnation of the English, the Americans, the Jews, the Muslims, the Tories, the Republicans, the Socialists, the Communists, or any other definable group.

I am astonished.

If these were posts from UKIP members or even Tories there would be an outcry (and rightly so).

Quite, grumppa. So what if they're so-called Blairites? They're still Labour Party members and just because they don't jump to JC's bidding at every turn doesn't make their opinions any less valid.

You omitted the Scots, Welsh and Irish grumppa

It seems to me that it is time to draw breath and look at areas we can agree on.

I think without a single case we all agree that anti-semitism is abhorrent.

We all agree that anti-semitism still apparently exists in all political parties and other institutions.

At the moment we are discussing the apparent incidents in the Labour party.

Ken Livingstone is loathed by many people I think we can all accept that, but he is equally liked by many people. Sufficient to have been voted Mayor of London. Trading insults about him seems somewhat pointless. To get to a more reasonable debate it seems to me that it is of more interest as to why the accusation of anti -Semite is made and I am of the opinion that criticism of Israel by the left is at the bottom of it.

Jalima, is claiming a group of MP's to be blairites , racist?

Why would anyone be antisemitic in the first place far less Labour? What's so wrong with Jewish people? I fully realise that this is an apparently naive question but it at the bottom of so much strife throughout the past century or so.

I don't think it a naive question Jane 10, it just has always been so , I think fear plays a big part

Persecution of the Jews has existed since at least the Medieval period and probably prior to that. It is a testament to their endurance and belief that they still exist. Many attrocities were committed in this country -I was reminded of that when I visited York last week.

It has been going on for a long, long time Jane but Christians have disliked them for obvious reasons ( not accepting Jesus as the Messiah) which doesn't mean ( before somebody complains that they are a Christian and they are not like this) that all think this way, but no doubt some do today, and way back a thousand years ago, they certainly thought this way.Then there is the fact that Jewish people were often merchants and craftsmen making money( think Gold Smith, Silver Smith etc) money lenders, and so on.They looked different too, being Middle Eastern.Those are some of the historical reasons, and my guess is that making money ( even though they worked hard) is the main reason that they were so disliked.

POGS,

The attack on Jeremy Corbyn pre-dated the Oxford Union Labour Club Chair's allegations of anti-semiticism, which came to a head in February 2016. In September 2015 Jonathan Arkush made demands of Corbyn, two of which Corbyn supported. One of the demands was to support Jewish faith schools, which Corbyn refused. At the time, a number of Jewish faith schools were 'failed' by Ofsted for not teaching British values or preparing pupils for life in Britain. Many of the pupils hardly speak English and learn little more than studying the Torah. Many of the schools are illegal and one was ordered to close immediately. You will probably recall that this happened to a number of Muslim schools in the so-called Trojan Horse scandal.

There are a number of articles in the Jewish Chronicle about Corbyn's refusal and there were suggestions he was antisemitic. Corbyn has rebutted the claims in various media, but little of it, including the closure and failing of Jewish schools, made the mainstream media. Very shortly after that, Lord Levy issued the Labour Party with a warning. Again it didn't make the mainstream media.

This all happened in late 2015, since when a number of historic allegations and non-specific smears have emerged. Apparently (so I've heard) there have been tensions in the Oxford Union Labour Club for some time between more liberal Jews, who criticise Israel and tend to sympathise with Palestinians, and more hard line Jews, who claim that any criticism of Israel and support for Palestinians is antisemitic. The Co-Chair's resignation and Lord Levy's threat to withdraw funding from the Labour Party were the culmination of that. I have read suggestions, although I don't know how true they are, that the two groups in Oxford split roughly into Blairites and Corbynites.

I have no idea if this is an orchestrated conspiracy, but it certainly looks as though some people with very passionate views have agendas and other people are jumping on the bandwagon, maybe for their own purposes. Whoever is behind the smears and for whatever reason, it isn't a simple case of antisemiticism being 'rife' in the Labour Party. It didn't just start with Oxford University.

Old prejudices die hard.

POGS, I'd like to know what you think of Zac Goldsmith's campaign which upsets Warsi.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/01/zac-goldsmiths-mayoral-campaign-tactics-upset-sayeeda-warsi

Is it racist or not?
Is what Livingstone said worse, and if so, why?
I am sure you will say it's not the point of this thread, but I think it is.

Why was this all brought up this week and not after the elections, as it had waited for two years?

Whose old prejudices, roses?
You should really expand on your cryptic comments. It's difficult to work out what and who you mean.

Why did Ken Livingstone decide to open his big mouth this week and not after the elections? Can't have it both ways.

He was asked a question by Vanessa Feltz. He answered it.

I fully agree Daphne, also the fact they chose to live within their own community - as some Muslims do now -

I really do believe the problem in the universities is caused by the actions of Israel in Palestine and not against Jews worldwide