A thread for those who are voting OUT of the EU to make it fair

I see Bags, I hadn't realised given the nature of the original post and the source of some of the links that it was intended to be a Soop's kitchen type thread.
Happy to leave you to it, in that case.

Young people finding employment in Greece, Spain and Italy is at an all time low, so of course they come here.Far more than UK young people going there! we certainly do not get the better bargain.

"the free movement of people" operates in both directions, and is not as the Brexiters insist only people coming to the UK. One difference is that younger people come over here to work and we send retirees to Europe. Some might think we get the better bargain!

Unless the EU chose to revoke the 'free movement of people' immigration will continue to go up and up and up.

Don't believe we would ever accept the euro here, ( although the 'big financial institutions' all wanted us to a while ago!!) However, if we vote remain, who knows what will happen in the EU over the next ten years, or what we would be forced to accept.It is not just leaving that's a leap in the dark, but staying also.

Mamie, for one. I don't believe we will take up the Euro in the foreseeable future and I'don't believe we will be flooded with immigrants. I don't have facts to back this, but it is what I believe. If some one has genuine facts to show otherwise I am prepared to consider them.

Goodness - not sure that I have much more to add really and not sure that people really want to hear from someone like me who lives in France and has had a long-held commitment to the EU.
I do have a couple of questions though and would be very interested in people's views.
In her OP practical said that if the vote was to remain in the EU then the euro would be immediately imposed and there would be no protection against the country being flooded with immigrants.
Can I ask if people really believe this and if so where the evidence can be found? Secondly, given that the Remain campaign is frequently accused of operating "Project Fear", how this post somehow constitutes something different?

thatbags

LOVE YOU!! and LOVE YOUR POST - 7.01am

Reading everything on here but feel it's pointless to join the battle.

Happy to leave it to Mamie as she was doing a grand job- but it was important I felt to respond to Anya's post- as no-one I believe made any comments here or on the other thread personal.

Mamie, do your best, bonne chance. This is just too imnportant.
Bonne chance.

bags Good link. Interesting comment from the author of the piece in that the French always knew that it would be one state. I liked his comment about waving the white flag. That's exactly how I feel.

jura, "if you possibly could!" Please see my previous post.

Sorry Anya, but his does not make sense. You say in one post that people have debated in a way 'which is deliberate and nasty' - and then put your hands up in the air saying you can't see what this is felt as an 'attack' - and making this very personal. Play the ball- as said often enough.

What to do for the best? who knows! Yesterday, I was for out, today, once again I'm undecided!!! If I'm honest, I just don't think that I personally can possibly say with conviction whether we as a nation should stay or go!! How on earth can anyone be so certain as to what is best for this country for the unforeseeable future? Who's got the crystal ball?!! How can any of us know what the future holds, even our illustrious politicians don't know. One person tells you this, another that! and unless you have a vested interest, how can you possibly tell who's right, or who's wrong?! I'm seriously thinking I just can't put my name to something I'm so uncertain about. That being the case, I'm leaning more and more to abstaining. What will be will be.

I think the concept of this thread, a sort of back-up support thread for those who know they will vote Out, but who don't wish to convince anyone else, is similar to the concept behind Soop's Kitchen. The OP asked politely that it could be so. How about it, Innies?

I know the pull of argumentation (in the non-aggressive meaning of the word) is strong (I succumb to it often enough myself), but there are several other threads already started for that purpose, and which work pretty much like back-up support threads for the Innies.

So how about it, innies? How about just leaving us outies to wallow in our own conviction? We'd appreciate the gesture if you possibly could.

Welshwife. You ask, "why do they wish to join" Because billions of euros will go to these countries to 'help' towards bringing their standard of living closer to the west.
At the danger of repeating myself, I was living in Bulgaria when they joined the eu in 2007. All that happens is: the corrupt politicians/ local mayors/ etc get richer. What's sad is: the general populations believe that their hospitals/schools/ roads etc are going to improve, they don't.

Is that another typo DD

Steelworkers' jobs weren't saved by being in the UK, which blocked import tariffs on Chinese steel.

In what way ISN'T democracy an abstract concept?

Abstract? are you serious nuttynana?

Since when has democracy been an 'abstract concept'?

I think the steel workers and the 11,000 BHS staff facing refundancy would not think their jobs have been protected by being in Europe Nutty

I would never claim to be politically savvy but the argument we should stay because so many of our institutions are foreign owned doesn't make sense. Is it being assumed these companies will close down these profitable institutions? The UK buys a great deal from Europe, will they refuse to sell to us? If they make it difficult for us to sell to them, we could go elsewhere to buy. As for it being a good thing to stay because so many other countries want to join - those countries are seeking financial support - which would be provided by the few richer countries, such as Germany, France and UK.

whilst the outers might argue about abstract concepts such as sovereignty, democracy etc the younger generation have real concerns like losing their jobs if we leave. Recession is a real threat which will take years to recover from.

granjura I have no intention of justifying myself to you. You are for ever making the mistake of thinking that disagreement with a point of view is 'attack'.
Those who wish to remain in the EU are attracted by the idea that jobs will be protected. We have seen no evidence to support that. Port Talbot and BHS are recent examples where being 'in' it 'out' makes not a bit of difference. Indeed EU regulations make attempts to rescue the steel industry by government intervention impossible.

That question about if we were not in it would we join is not so relevant as if we were not in it we would probably be scrabbling to join like the other countries are!! If it is so bad why do they wish to join or do you see it like the Eurovision where everyone wants to join in.
As we have said before Cameron wanted to appease those in his party who have always been sceptics - he was caught and had to act because of getting a majority - the never believed he would win an outright majority but that there would be another coalition and he could have blamed them for not having one.

"Britain is plugged into the global system in ways that the Remainers have not even begun to recognise, let alone seriously address. There are a universe of global bodies above the level of the sub-regional EU. The WTO, Codex, UNECE, the ILO, the IMO, and so on. But, as part of the EU, the UK is bound by the EU “common position” on these forums, without an independent voice, vote or right of reservation."

"The Remainers want us to believe that it would be really, really dangerous for Britain, one of the world’s oldest and most successful nation-state democracies, to embrace the same level of independence as say, Australia, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, the United States, etc. Then they act incredulous when we say that we don’t believe them."

Quotes from here: The EU is not the single market.