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EU - I'm in a quandary

(877 Posts)
Riverwalk Fri 03-Jun-16 08:39:39

I can't be the only one!

I'm minded to vote out - the main reason being the free movement of capital and labour has resulted in a very low-wage economy and zero-hours contracts (gravy train, inefficiency, lack of democracy, vested interests, etc., also play a part).

However, how can I be on the same side as Bozzer, Gove, Fox, Farage et al - I wouldn't normally give them the time of day. Apart from Gisela Stuart I can't think of any politician I'd be remotely connected to.

Surely the Big Beasts in politics, academia & sciences, unions, etc. can't all be wrong?

As I said, a quandary confused

daphnedill Thu 23-Jun-16 03:11:55

TAKE BACK CONTROL. TAKE BACK CONTROL. TAKE BACK CONTROL. This was the incantation that echoed with Dalek-like monotonous hysteria from the Brexit side, inside Wembley Arena during the big EU Referendum debate. I kept an informal running tally, by scratching lines in the margin of my pad. One hundred and twelve times Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom managed between them.

If a politician is asked a question and all he or she can offer back is a slogan, legitimate concerns arise. How will you deal with the fall of pound sterling? TAKE BACK CONTROL. How many jobs will be lost in the short and medium term? TAKE BACK CONTROL. How will you reduce immigration? TAKE BACK CONTROL. Do you plan to be in the Single Market or not? TAKE BACK CONTROL. The crowd cheered enthusiastically.

But how is it "taking back control" to hand a blank cheque to demagogues who have no plan for the country? How is it "taking back control" to feed the ugliest xenophobia of the ultra right who will see a vote for Brexit as moral validation? How is it "taking back control" to purposefully plunge your own country into financial turmoil and break a decades-old peace pact, at the most globally turbulent time? How is it "taking back control" to walk off a bridge, without even looking down?

And why is a vote to Remain in the European Union, to avoid all of this, any less empowering?
The Vote Leave campaign became aware very early on that they had lost the economic argument. Not because of some conspiracy. Because the facts were not on their side. If they argued that they would stay in the Single Market, it was pointed out that this necessitates accepting the paying of fees, the free movement of people, and compliance with regulation. If they argued that they would be outside, it was pointed out the economic effect would be catastrophic. There wasn't even a serious debate on the catastrophy - just the size and length of it.

They devised a strategy of simply creating as much noise as possible. Boris was perfect for this. The master of it. They attacked knowledge and expertise as if they were some sort of elitist pursuit, like polo. They made up facts and plastered them on buses. They heckled. So that, by the end, reasoned argument was drowned out. This suited the Brexit campaign just fine. If they couldn't find credible people to argue their side, they would instead discredit everyone.

Meanwhile, the fires of xenophobia were being stoked. If the carrot was in short supply, the stick was ample. The impression was created that the UK was under some sort of occupation, some tyrranical yoke, and people had to fight for their freedom, for their sovereignty. "I want my country back!" From whom and for whom didn't seem to matter.

But the murder of Jo Cox created a big problem for the leaders of Brexit. Campaigning was called off "as a mark of respect", but really to regroup. Disgusting posters reminiscent of Nazi propaganda, unfurled amidst much fanfare a few hours earlier, were quickly rolled up. The rhetoric of fear and divisiveness had to be doused down - not because it was the right thing to have done right from the start, but because "it wouldn't play well".

Step forward Boris once again. He was so close to Number 10 now, he would not fall at the final hurdle. "Take back control" was zeroed in on - a toned down version of the jingoism and fear sown in the previous few months, but formulated positively. A hollow, tin drum that makes a lot of noise, but means nothing. "Take back control."

The truth is, of course, much more banal. Control is always limited at country level and virtually non-existent at personal political level. And nobody was taking it away.

We entered this pact with our neighbours freely and have done extremely well out of it. "Ever closer union" is not some concept sprung on the UK by stealth. It is contained in the very first paragraph of the very first treaty signed in Rome in 1957, which is preambled as an agreement between nations "determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe". This is what we signed up to from the very start.

The fact that we are having this debate and this referendum, proves beyond any doubt that we are still sovereign, free to walk away from the deal whenever we want. No European army has marched in our streets to stop the vote. Wembley Arena was not bombed by Brussels during the debate. The question is: should we walk away.

There is nothing revolutionary about making the wrong choice, just because you can. There is nothing revolutionary about the logic of "I need to kick something; this is something, therefore I need to kick it".

Unelected officials participate at every level of government in every democracy. They are not only necessary - they are essential. Technocrats make the world go round - not politicians. And that is as it should be. The majority of politicians are dangerous careerists who have only a passing acquaintance with their brief. There, I said it.

There is no argument, that the balance between expertise and accountability is entirely wrong at the moment. But this is not exclusive to the European level and not exclusive to the unelected part of our democracy. It is endemic. What sort of strategy is it to admit we failed at this level of democracy, so we will withdraw to the one below and hope it sorts itself?

We live in a country with a Monarch, a House of Lords, a civil service, judges, Director Generals, Agencies, Quangos, Tsars. Ministers are appointed and on many occasions are not MPs. We have a legislature that, because of the party whipping system, is effectively hostage to our Executive. We have an electoral system which means that, with the exception of a few marginals, you may as well not bother voting.

Take back control from whom and give it to whom? Take back control from the European Court, from the Commission, from the European Parliament, from the Council of Ministers and give it all to a man so cynically ambitious, so unscrupulously jaded, that he changed his allegiance from pro-EU to anti-EU two months ago, just to get the keys to the top office?

Is that what "taking back control" looks like? Not to me.

Taking control is more than putting a cross in a box and expecting to be instantly transported to Shangri La. Taking control is about organising at the local level, volunteering for charities, standing for what you believe in, changing consensus, forcing the EU to democratise, campaigning for House of Lords reform, fighting for Syrian refugees, campaigning for proportional representations, standing up to bullies, effecting change one exhausting battle at a time. Voting for your MEPs, voting for your Police Commissioners, voting for your local council. Jo Cox understood this.

Not clicking your heels together and wishing. Not being in denial. Not believing in Bogeymen. Not blaming anyone who doesn't look like you. Not handing control from one group of crooks, to another, significantly more unhinged group of crooks. All those things are the opposite of "taking back control".

Taking back control is about taking responsibility, individually and collectively, for where we find ourselves today and fighting against what we dislike about it. It is about changing the big picture one bit at a time. To do that, we have to be rational, kind, brave, persistent and active participants in our structures, from local to European level.

Take back control from the demagogues who would burn this country down, if they could be in charge of the ashes. Vote Remain.

www.byline.com/column/11/article/1119

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 05:51:18

0.5% of the UK population- the tiniest amount represents the EU worker in this country.

The EU is NOT a sovereign state however much the nationalist would have you believe.
UK is sovereign in ALL its affairs, except those affairs relating to the single market.

paola Thu 23-Jun-16 06:17:16

Absolutely brilliant comments, daphnedill! Well-argued and well laid out. I wish all the Brexiters and undecideds could read them.

daphnedill Thu 23-Jun-16 06:25:06

They're not my comments, paolo, but I agree with them 100%. I wish I were so eloquent. The link is at the bottom of the post.

Anya Thu 23-Jun-16 06:38:34

Read them paola ....just more of the same. Pity you didn't read them well enough note the 'byline' grin

paola Thu 23-Jun-16 06:48:12

Sorry! 5 a.m. here and I'm just being insomniac as usual and skimming through stuff!

daphnedill Thu 23-Jun-16 06:49:46

Was there any need to be so rude, Anya? It's early and maybe paolo hasn't quite woken up.

More of the same? Well, yes, it is more of the same from LEAVE - slogans with no substance. 121 mentions of 'take back control', which is brainwashing. The UK is already in control, but if it's repeated often enough, people will believe we're not.

paola Thu 23-Jun-16 06:53:17

No problem...I'm quite happy with the byline.

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 07:15:46

Wow anya not quite awake yet? Hope you are too embarrassed when you come too.

Jane10 Thu 23-Jun-16 07:25:47

What's going on? No need to be so unpleasant girls!!

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 07:33:44

Sorry! Knee jerk reaction. Apologies all around.

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 08:24:02

If a person thinks all are demamgogues, that includes the Labour and all other political party in Britain. It is really a I think nothing of Britain speech. Nothing at all.
I always suspected that that is what some people think of Britain[no idea if the writer lives in Britain or even in Europe] and that is why they think the EU is better.

Or it could actually be a power grab speech for the EU.

They are out to grab more and more power.

We are not just voting today for the EU of today, we are voting for what they, note they, not us, have in mind for the EU in years to come.

TAKE BACK CONTROL

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 08:26:50

Surprised how much is on social media from our European compatriots urging us to REMAIN.

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 08:28:59

The words are quite hateful of leaders in Britain.

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 08:31:54

If I was sitting over there, I would want Britian to remain too.
Partly for the money we pay in. And partly because I would feel that bit safer with Britain in it, to shield them from the worst excesses of the EU, and partly to shield from what they have in mind.

If I were them, I would be quite scared.

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 08:34:33

Quite obieone

Welshwife Thu 23-Jun-16 08:47:13

I find it extraordinary how people believe the likes of Farage and Boris who really have no idea what will be the likely scenario if we do vote to leave but totally decry the words of neutral institutions and members of foreign Govts as well as our own. Many European politicians have agreed that changes need to be made within the EU - if we vote to remain then the UK will have a say in these changes and many other countries are of the same sort of mind as UK about the reforms etc. I would rather believe experts etc than those who can only shout 'Take back control' when we have never really lost control and also blame everything on hard working migrants.

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 09:04:42

Do you like Cameron and Osborne now?

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 09:06:41

Welshwife, we have been waiting for changes from the EU for approx 43 years.
High time Britain has chance to experience not being in the EU.

Elegran Thu 23-Jun-16 09:15:39

CONTROL of a vehicle without a detailed navigation plan of where you are going and the ability to steer it through tricky situations is an accident going somewhere to happen. Knowledge of the highway code is essential.

I have not seen any detailed plan for all this control that has become the battle cry of the leavers.

WHO will be in control? Those who can grab the steering wheel with most force? The most devious shapeshifters after the main chance? The rabble led by the red-top press shouting slogans of hate against all other drivers?

WHAT ROUTE are they planning to take? Don't just tell me the final destination (Utopia) tell me the road turnings, the estimated distance, the steep hills to toil up, the coasting gaily down the other side, the congestion points where we will have to crawl through heavy traffic at 5 miles an hour using up fuel and breathing in fumes, the places where there could be lengthy diversions to delay us and sap our courage, the locations of garages for repairs and refuelling, the rest rooms and refreshment stops.

Without knowing these things, we might as well parachute out of a plane over uncharted shark-infested waters because we don't like our fellow-passengers, or we think the cabin staff are making too many decisions about our meals and how we stow our hand luggage.

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 09:22:52

Where are the EU going Elegran? Do you know? They are ready, are they not, to tell us tomorrow if the vote is to remain.

Why are they afraid of telling us today?

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 09:23:32

Vote leave

PUT on a BLINDFOLD

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 09:32:45

The politicians over here try to work for Britain's best interest, even if we dont agree with them.

The EU does not work for Britain's best interest.

I do find it odd, that left wing posters can appear not to even like Jeremy Corbyn's politics. Well at least choose the EU politicians rather than his politics.

Dont forget, if we vote to remain, it is not just the next 2 or 3 years of British politics that is being sidelined. Decades.

obieone Thu 23-Jun-16 09:35:41

Vote remain, and head towards a car crash.

I actually think vote remain will lead to war.

I dont write that lightly, and have thought about writing it.

The immigration policy of the EU has destabilised Europe. They have realised too late, or else, that was the intention of some all along.

whitewave Thu 23-Jun-16 09:37:34

Britain works for Britains interest. What do you think the government has been doing!
The EU works in the single markets interest - who is the EU, - Britain amongst others.