EU - I'm in a quandary

Well if they hadn't learnt from history that it was a bad idea they might have tried to repeat it?

No point in arguing though really. I respect the views of these historians (I think Ian Kershaw is particularly brilliant on the broader sweep of European history) and I think their case is well argued.
We will have to agree to disagree.

Mamie I have not yet come down on either side, so I'm not arguing for Remain or Leave here, but last night I was reading an old (May) articles from the Times about how back in history the UK has been the first to break away from larger European(ish) monopolies, such as the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church, simply because it's position as an island enables it to have more freedom to do so. If I remember rightly, the writer was saying that that freedom is often a source for good, starting the break up of organisations that had got too big and cumbersome and so were starting to fail anyway.

Just thought you might be interested as you were quoting the historians's views.

All Empires eventually end because they become too extended.

The central idea of starting a Union within Europe after the war was to stop the wars happening again. Almost all the countries had suffered terrible loss of life and for the preceding couple of hundred years wars just kept springing up for all sorts of reasons but mainly over land. Churchill discussed it with politicians towards the end of the war. This alliance has worked in that the members of the EU have not had a war between any of the members but have at times fought together against other regimes.
I was always surprised at the attitude of DeGalle as he himself had fled to England during the war and had been assisted. Maybe he felt he was beholden to Britain and did not like it.
Life for the general population has improved since UK joined the Union - life in the 60s and early 70s was not all glamour and happiness at all for people bringing up a family. It was during the 70s that things started to improve dramatically and people expected more.
As with most things in life there are choices to be made and a balance to be found. No one thinks Europe is perfect and Tusk and Junker have both come out saying that a federal state idea has to be abandoned. Tusk referred to it as the 'Utopian idea'. So I think that fear of that is no reason to leave. The laws which have been passed - mainly very good ones for the populations - have been passed by agreement with all member states so quite democratic really. Britain still has a veto and despite what people think there has been no agreement for Britain to join the Euro - it has been accepted that Sterling will remain - it is a major currency.
Nothing is worth seeing many people made jobless and losing their homes etc - what a retrograde step that would be.

gu.com/p/4k8tz/sbl

Maybe worth reading for anyone unsure.this is the first link I have managed to do - now need to go and have a lie down!

Careful, Welshwife. Could be habit forming.

I haven't mastered it yet!?

I did check it with preview!! It is putting the double square brackets round it which seemed the magic bullet!!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/03/our-bad-habits-britain-brink-brexit-leave-remain-failures-culture-politics-media

I do not do that Welshwife.
I just right click on the link, then right click again in the GN box. No brackets needed.

So I an looking at say a Guardian article - where do I click and then how do I click it inGN.?

Also some people just put here in blue and up it pops how does that work?

Will try that the next time I feel strong enough to post one!

Death by a thousand links!

WW I sent mine to myself from the bottom of the article and from the email was able to copy and then post - using the double square brackets shown on GN instructions - and low and behold - but DJ seems simpler.

Phew! Sounds a tad complicated

The whole thing is far too complicated for me to understand other than the fact that I cannot vote in favour of something that Michael Gove supports.

Really? I would still vote OUT even if Corbyn supported it ( mind you, he does in his heart.)

How close are you to his heart to know that?

Tegan sounds like as good a reason as any.

This referendum certainly does show up some amazingly strange bed fellos- that is for sure. I've never agreed with Cameron before.

I thought Gisela Stuart came across very well on today's repeat of Any Questions.

As did broadcaster and columnist Julia Hartley-Brewer. They spoke with that increasingly rare commodity, common sense

If Gisela Stuart put herself forward as leader of the Labour Party I might vote labour again. Last time I voted for them was for Blair....... I'm not the only one who knew what his true intensions were. I think she's great.

Who didn't know.

Majority of scientists also believe it would be a big mistake to leave. Hawkin included. UK science is strong - as good as any outside the USA - despite recent cutbacks in UK government funding.
We play a key role in international projects like Cern, space station and genetics.
Students from the UK get EU grant money and many EU students come here to study. In the specialist science dept just down the road they run a lot of successful master's courses that would have to come to an end if the EU students were not free to come here - there are not enough UK students applying. My friend has a niece who is doing a master's in Sweden (free - unlike ours) because the universities treat their own nationals and EU nationals alike. My niece is considering doing one in Amsterdam (also free).
If you visit a research lab in the UK you will find a mix of EU nationalities working there because they can recruit the best from EU universities as well as UK. Thus areas like cancer research benefit from top talent from all over Europe. scientistsforeu.uk

Agree with you regards Gisela Stuart, she is very impressive.