Orlando Shootings

'Swimhome Until we realise that all of us have murderous feelings at some time / and are capable of killing others'
Yes we can have those feelings. Acting upon them however, is a completely different matter!

Re mental problems, I was flabbergasted to hear that the man in Norway who killed even more people was actually declared sane.........

See this in the so called greatest democracy in the one of the richest countries in the world.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-nightclub-attack-worst-mass-shooting-in-us-timeline-2012-florida-lgbt-gay-nightclub-pulse-a7078156.html

I was in Oklahoma a few years ago on holiday and went into a Walmart for a bottle of wine for the evening. They didnt sell alcohol, it is the Bible Belt after all, but they sold a vast array of firearms! I know if someone really wants to kill they will find a way but in the USA the gun laws make it too easy.

What makes it even sadder is that most of the victims were presumably gay and would have had to face bigotry and prejudice all their lives, only to be shot down in a place where they felt at home.

I shall never understand their gun laws. To be able to buy guns like shopping for sweets is amazing. Not just little ones but great big assault rifles than can kill 50 people and injure so many more. My heart goes out to everyone affected, not to mention the Muslims who are demonized by one madman.

I felt for Obama, he spoke about the stupidity of their guns laws, but knew he was talking to deaf ears. How many tragedies does it take the US to realise that guns are dangerous. So sad for everyone caught up in this.

It is a blinking man made tragedy.

For those who are interested in some comparitive facts on gun ownership and mass shootings between here in the UK and some other Western World Countries here is a link to a very interesting article written by a criminologist from George Washington University.

Despite intentional homicide rates decreasing by 40 - 50% in all 11 countries mentioned, mass shootings in the USA have increased massively in the same period and the association between gun ownership and mass shootings is high.

I dispute that it is easy to get and own an assault rifle here in the UK...although, of course, if you mix with a criminal sub culture who deals in guns, it is always possible. There isn't really an appetite for gun ownership here and I hope there never is.

In the decades that I prosecuted criminals I only once, despite dealing with several murders, prosecuted some for actually using a gun, and that was a shotgun used by a farmer pursuit of a fox, missing and hitting a chap on the side of the main road.

There were a few armed robberies where sawn off shotguns were carried but not used. Even those were very rare.

I forgot the link (see post from me above)

theconversation.com/six-things-americans-should-know-about-mass-shootings-48934?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20June%2013%202016%20-%205025&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20June%2013%202016%20-%205025+CID_653d70123185b28611203bb2a05c7f76&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Six%20things%20Americans%20should%20know%20about%20mass%20shootings

And here is another link to a different, but very interesting article from the New York Times that has analysed where the guns came from in the last 16 mass shootings. At least half of the gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health issues...but, of course, there are then the remaining eight.

If guns can be obtained with relative ease and there is culture that promotes gun ownership (legal or otherwise) then expect them to be used...and in a way you would not wish.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html?_r=0

Nonio I think this article was the one I was really looking for. Poor Obama will not get anywhere with this but at least he has had the courage to say what he thinks about his country's gun laws.

As an American I can tell you that mental health is the last thing addressed in this country. Unfortunately if people can't buy any weapon legally they will get it illegally. I was a former teacher who never thought about kids getting killed in school until Columbine. And I had many children with mental issues that had anger issues as well.
It's too late now to get everyone's guns back. Because our Bill of Rights which was written in the 1700's says " we have the right to bear arms" everyone thinks they should own one. That right was made at a time when men needed to protect their land from others. I despise the fact that we now have to worry about everything, about going to the movies, being in a nightclub, going to a restaurant or school. I'm sad for the generation growing up.

Sadly the gun lobby in USA is so powerful and rich it's unlikely anything will change. They put their support behind their chosen candidates and so it goes on. President Obama has tried to make changes but to no avail.

Terrible tragedy, I also think this murderer had links with isis, targeting gay people whose lifestyle they object to. Why do these vermin have the right to judge anyone, hitler and the nasis did just that and look what they did, exterminated millions of innocent human beings. This murdering scumbags father spoke on the news and said that it was up to god to punish the gays, even if there was a god then surely he would not behave in this way,I am not religious so maybe isis would want to kill me as well.

I don't know if he felt in his insanity that Islam is in favour of going out with a gun and shooting randomly, or if it was because Allah objects to gays - perhaps both. I do feel that it is time that the world realised that the Prophet's message was similar to Christ's - an enlightened one - and the teachers of all world faiths should explain to their believers that the Deity/Deities/humanitarian conscience/whatever you choose to believe in wish us to learn to love, understand and tolerate all of mankind and the sooner we stop people running around with weapons killng wildlife and humans, the better.

janet when his father was on tv I thought he said this man was joining the police force but on reading these posts thought I must be mistaken, did you hear him say anything like that?

thatbags - I think that Twitter article sums up perfectly what most people think.

Yes, they said he wanted to join the police force, and I think that he was doing some kind of preliminary training.

I think Nonio is right about the USA contrasted with other countries. My own DS, Dil and DGC live in California and I worry about the gun issue. (Yes we have some knife crime here in the UK, but if the perpetrator in Florida had used a knife, there would surely have been far, far, fewer casualties, if any.) What is needed is for every USA state to address/change their gun laws - and even if it took decades to get this sorted, it would surely be better than just not addressing this issue and maintaining the status quo on gun access.

Swimhome - I agree with you saying there is so much murder on our TV screens. It's no wonder nutters go round mindlessly killing people, they only have to watch TV to get their ideas formulated for rape and murder. Its amazes me that this joined up thinking has not dawned on the TV broadcasters and the governments.

The issue of the Norweigan mass murderer who was declared sane doesn't mean that the perpetrator in the US shooting may not have had m.h. issues such a bi polar. Bi polar would be very unlikely to lead him to mass murder but being a psychopath or being in the middle of a psychotic episode might.

I wasn't using m.h. as an excuse for the murders, just pointing out that m.h. problems may be contributory factors. We don't know enough yet to form informed judgements.

I think the man in Norway was declared sane because if not the courts would have had to reexamine his case annually. Possibly too traumatic for the country.
I watch murders and read them but with the firm belief that justice and goodness will be the outcome. I doubt if I am alone. I see it as a form of protection against all the un solved murders in real life.

Swimhome has a point - it's unlikely that anything 'out there' in the world will change until people's heads and hearts change.

I have never understood the right to bear arms. After all, guns were/are designed and manufactured specifically to kill. They don't have any other function that I'm aware of.

And yes, why indeed are we so obsessed with violence as entertainment?

And janeainsworth, I wonder about the notion that we all have murderous feelings at times. When I thought about it I remembered feeling as if I could be violent towards the other girl my boyfriend started seeing when I was 16. And then again when my son was bullied at school and the school weren't interested in the problem. Happily, I was able to control my feelings and deal with the issues in a more socially acceptable manner. That's civilisation I guess, and one of the things that differentiates us from animals.

In The I today Stefano Hadfield writes that he is visiting relatives in Boston. While talking about the Orlando shooting he mentioned that he had never even touched a gun. Immediate Shock, horror and disbelief from his relatives who all brought their guns out to show him. It's a totally different mind set, most Americans can't see anything odd about carrying loading weapons while not wanting people to be shot.

Yes, they nearly all 'pack heat' over there, even to go to the supermarket( not long ago a young mother was shot dead by her own 2 year old as they shopped in Walmart.She left her bag next to him in the trolley, he fished out her gun and.....)

iam I wasn't using m.h. as an excuse for the murders, just pointing out that m.h. problems may be contributory factors. We don't know enough yet to form informed judgements.
In the link that nonio posted to the piece in the Conversation, the point is made that in other countries, the burden is on someone wanting to buy a firearm to prove that they have a legitimate use for it, and also that they don't have a history of mental illness.
If such checks had the norm in the US, most of the mass shootings if the last 20 years would not have happened.
The implication is that MH issues definitely are a contributory factor.