The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

Yes I'm not the only one saddened by the level of debate not just here but everywhere. The football hooligans in France chanting " f*ck off Europe we're out" . Why did our stupid government call a referendum? We vote in governments to make important political and economic decisions, not to leave it up to people who haven't a clue ( me included).

pollyperkins- just as I see it- which is why I've been keeping well away. Sad.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!

Thanks daphne. I have only caught little bits on the car radio so good to be updated.

You are so right about us being able to take measures similar to Cyprus without contravening EU rules. So often governments have allowed blame to rest with the EU when it has been their decision not to use the rules available.

Why do some people get so unpleasant on some of these threads?! And Im not referring to anyone in particular , its just a general observation. Surely we can have different points of view without squabbling like children? And its been remarked on more than one thread that Remainers are taking over or attacking Brexiters. It seems to me that the reverse is true! I personally am strongly in favour of staying in the EU but many friends and neighbours want to leave. However, we have not fallen out over it!

There was nothing 'nasty' about my post, Gracesgran. I merely pointed out that the way your reply was written it was understandable that Anya thought you were agreeing with her point.

You really do take umbrage easily, don't you?

@Gracesgran

It's not just benefits for EU children who don't live in the UK which have been curbed, but children who live here, unless their parents have contributed for four years. General cuts to all tax credits will deter anybody who mistakenly thought they could come to the UK for a free ride.

You're absolutely right about push and pull factors, which are in the long run more effective than laws. The UK can't control the push factors, but we have a great deal of total control over the pull factors.

A previous poster has demonstrated how Cyprus has controlled pull factors and there is no earthly reason why a UK government couldn't take similar measures without contravening any EU rules.

Oh Anya do read properly. I admit I had to post and run but it really wasn't that difficult.

I did not say you were not aware it was me but coming on here to make a joke at my expense was typical of your standards of unpleasantness when you hadn't even bothered to say on the other thread that you were talking about something you had posted elsewhere.

As for putting words into your mouth Anya - I followed normal convention and put quotes round your words and then followed it with my view which was not in quotes.

Anya you may believe you have balls to state your OP is a fact I think it takes courage to disagree on this forum and I do. It is not a fact that "that if we remain, we will continue to have no control over numbers of immigrants from the EU, entering the country." It may become a fact but it is still possible to change things if our current government got off their backsides and did not leave the EU to trundle along so they could play politics with one another in the UK.

Pippa000 has commented on the difference in the pull factors - we could look at these. Daphne explained that we have just won a case so we do not have to send money for children in their home country if the person working here does not have permission for permanent residence. Many of countries in the EU also have issues with the numbers of low skilled workers - we could join with them to work out better ways to make this area of the EU work. This lily-livered government did not do anything until it had no choice. If a government was determined we could get the best from freedom of movement. Your "fact" cannot be a fact; it is the future and we all know that you cannot predict the future only estimate what it will be and that makes it an opinion. It can be a more or a less informed opinion based on critical thinking.

Ana more nasty remarks I see. I must remember to check how well written your posts are; after all that is what we are on here for isn't it to check how well written posts are.

@Jalima

I know this is anecdotal, but this is exactly what my window cleaner and his mate think. There was also a Vote Leave stall in my local market a couple of weeks ago. I eavesdropped some of the conversations and this was what people were being told. Somebody was trying to challenge the claim, but a small group just shouted them down.

@Jalima

My friend's son was in the same situation, so I know how much grief if causes and how much it cost for him to come to the UK. He was actually deported on his eighteenth birthday and it took nearly two years for him to come back. However, this is a result of the UK's immigration policies, not the EU.

BUT every Brexit person I have spoken to believes that they ONLY enter UK to take benefits ---- FACT!!!!!
Welshwife I am worried about the type of people you speak to
I have spoken to Brexiters and Bremainers and haven't heard that stated by anyone at all.

know

You must now some very narrow-minded Brexiters, Welshwife!

Anyone worried about the airforce?
is there a problem with the Royal Air Force?

or was that just a comment because the Army and Royal Navy were mentioned?

FYI my view was not obtained from the newspapers but from the horse's mouth.

Son, returning to the UK after years abroad tried to return with his wife of 20 years
widgeon I don't know if your DIL is a Commonwealth citizen but this is just the kind of example I mean in my post above.
That has resulted in Commonwealth countries tightening up their rules for spouses being able to remain in, say, Australia or NZ. DD even had to provide details of how the domestic chores were divided when applying for a visa to stay over there. And she is the higher earner of the two.

The main problem with the immigration would appear to be that people feel the EU immigrants are coming to just claim benefits.
I don't think anyone on here or other threads has said that - is that an opinion in the country as a whole? I haven't heard it said. We know that the farmers around here depend on immigrant labour otherwise the crops would rot.

Digby Jones was on the Daily Politics complaining that it takes him too long to get Visas for engineers he wishes to bring over from India I don't know what kind of engineers he is seeking and why he wants to bring them from India when I know extremely highly qualified engineers who are unable to find work in the UK. Engineering is a multi-faceted discipline.

^ It had tried to join this single market without success over a number of years.^
This is another thing that worries me - it was De Gaulle who constantly blocked our entry (as we had not bothered to join in the early years, despite it being Sir Winston Churchill's vision).
One person having so much power, deals done behind closed doors. Juncker and the other Commissioners etc. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
(cannot do the accents on here but you get the gist I hope).

Why do Brits think everyone is making a beeline for their shores, do you think other countries have no immigration problems.
Yes, we see it on the news, countries trying to erect fences, barbed wire etc - horrifying - but it does make one wonder if the whole concept of the EU and free borders is becoming shakier and shakier and is about to all disintegrate as an ideal that can never be achieved.

@widgeon

Your predicament has been caused by the UK, not the EU.

If BREXIT politicians are serious about bringing immigration to below 100,000, your son and daughter-in-law would be in the same predicament, because there are currently more than 100,000 non-EU immigrants. There will still need to cuts in the numbers and some kind of rationing (points system?) imposed.

Anyone worried about the airforce?

Pippa,

The British system is about to change. Most EU migrants won't get child benefits or child tax credits until they've lived here for four years. This was one of the issues Cameron 'won' in he pre-referendum talks and the European Court has just ruled that the curb is legal. Other benefits have already been restricted. There is very little evidence that EU migrants come to the UK for benefits. The overwhelming majority come for work. Moreover, they are relatively young and therefore fit, so are only light users of the NHS, which they pay for through taxes and NI, just like everybody else.

There is absolutely no reason why the UK couldn't have the same system as Cyprus. The EU doesn't tell countries how to set up their benefit systems.

The problem is that UK benefits are means-tested rather than depending on contributions or (up to now) residency. If the UK were to pay contributory benefits (with a safety net for those who have never paid contributions), the problem wouldn't arise. However, it would initially cost more and people wouldn't be able to use 'shirker' rhetoric, because people would have paid for their benefits.

It would appear that the army chiefs are very concerned about losing control of our army when the EU forms it's own army
The Admirals are very concerned too, about the Royal Navy, so I understand.

Here in Southern Cyprus, which incidentally is in the EU, there is no social security unless you have a minimum of two years contribution, and it lasts for 6 months only. Everyone pays for healthcare, 3 Euros to see Dr, and a prescription charge for every drug, pensioners and children included. If you do not speak Cypriot Greek it is next to impossible to get employment, unless you are happy to do a very low paid job (usually less than 400 Euros a month) Child benefit is paid for school terms only, and has to be claimed every year. So why does UK have such a lax system? Immigrants from any country have a very hard time here and many go home as this part of the EU is not a land of milk and honey. ( although we do have extremely delicious local honey!!)

Anya yes I am well aware that most EU migrants enter the UK to find work and pay into the system BUT every Brexit person I have spoken to believes that they ONLY enter UK to take benefits ---- FACT!!!!!

This reason may well be erroneous but it does not stop people believing it unfortunately.

i firmly believe EU migrants pay more in than they take out, and this seems to support my belief: fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/

Welshwife the majority of EU' migrants are looking for work. I think we can say that is a fact ...wheread your statement about the majority of people thinking they come to seek benefits IS NOT, it is an assumption.

It really is hard to stick to facts isn't it?