The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

What a utterly disgraceful poster by Brexit. They really need to pay attention to some produced by the Nazis and be ashamed.

Practical

When threads are running on the same topic there are many posters who have noticeably posted the same post on more than one , two, three etc posts!

varian sorry I didn't know you had been made a moderator over what anyone could post and where.
I know it won't make any difference on 2 threads (not more)but thought it should be on this thread after I had put it on the other. I will await your permission next time ( as if )

I am for remaining; my cousin is for leaving. We are both decent, thoughtful people. We need to respect the opinions of others and try to reach the best decision for the country. There is far too much prejudice on both sides about which people are for in and which are for out.

If we were out of the EU and Ireland remained in, we would either-

- have to accept that any EU citizen could go freely to Ireland and then walk across the border without checks and from there into the rest of the UK - or-

- have to re-erect an armed border between Ireland and NI - or -

- demand that everyone, INCLUDING BRITISH CITIZENS, show a passport whenever they travel from NI to Scotland, England or Wales (ie from one part of the UK to another)

The first option means free movement and either of the last two could lead to the break up of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That might suit the IRA but is that what we really want???

Stats are stats- just facts, figures- they don't carry a judgement in themselves.

But if you look at the stats for Trump supporters- would you deny that there are clear indications of who votes for whom/what?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwlsd8RAoqI
...I doubt if this link will work either....

Also we will not be able to trade freely with Europe without some free movement of people

We do control our borders outside of Europe and had 300000 non European immigrants last year and I assume? Asylum seekers are not counted as immigrants?

In the main it is the illegal immigration which is the problem and that will still be very difficult to control - people have all sorts of ways of getting into the country or overstaying their visas etc. so that is not necessarily a true fact.
Depending on the deal they manage to agree with the EU will depend on whether or not any money needs to be paid. The only way we could cut a deal not paying a fee is to accept tariffs as most unlikely the remaining members will agree to give the UK a better deal than they themselves get. So maybe not quite so true either.

practical you don't need to post all your comments on two or more threads - that won't persuade anyone I'm afraid

PS Is that the same Michael Howard who was referred to by his colleague Anne Widdecombe as "having something of the night about him"?

Now, that's a difficult one isn't it. Whose opinion do I most trust/respect. lord [there's something of the night about him] Howard [Leave]or Kenneth Clarke [Remain]; possibly the most respected politician in the country on both sides of the house.

Put this on another thread but being as it concerns fact it should be on here
Lord Howard, a former Conservative Party leader, blasted the Remain team for their "scaremongering" during the campaign.
He told Nick Ferrari on LBC there had been a lot of "guesswork in the campaign" but not many facts.
Lord Howard said: "There are three facts.
"Number one: If we leave the European Union, we won’t have to pay billions of pounds a year into their coffers.
"Number two: If we leave, we can control immigration into this country.
"Number three: If we leave, our parliament and our courts will no longer be subordinate to the European Court of Justice.
"We will be an independent self-governing country again.
"Pretty well everything else is guesswork.”

Oh Anya going back to your OP. "facts"? Unfortunately research has shown - and I'm not trying to be a smart alec here - that facts are very low priority in decision making and that people already have a life view which they seek to reinforce by seeking facts which support it. Facts which do not support their life view actually reinforce their pre formed beliefs apparently, but hey ho it's fun arguing the toss or there wouldn't be a thread......

I cant see David Cameron being around too long if the vote is OUT. But who knows?

Switzerland has been mentioned on one or two of the 'closed' EU threads. (there have been a few!)

Switzerland applied to join the European Union in 1992 but several referendums later this never came to fruition. It has now officially withdrew it's application.

In March 2016 the Swiss National Council ( the lower house of the Swiss Parliament) voted to withdrawal it's 'suspended application' for full EU membership, the vote was 126 to 46. The motion was passed by the Council of States .

Now the upper house of the Swiss Parliament has voted yesterday to approve a motion from the House of Representatives that essentially calls the old application meaningless. 27 members of the upper house , The Council of States, voted to cancel Switzerland's long standing EU application versus 13 senators against and 2 abstained.

Switzerland will now give 'formal notice' to the EU to consider it's withdrawal.

Whilst the vote is seen by some to have little consequence it does show a 'stance', a low level rejection of the EU by the Swiss by means of a democratic vote.

Well, if we do vote to Leave, and then article 50 is thrown out of the window and we are offered a good deal to come back in ( actually, we won't actually be out at that point) then remember, you heard it here first folks!

Statistics are often manipulated to mean almost anything.

What nonsense is spouted in the media and reported on here sometimes.The working people of this country may not be well educated, but don't confuse this with lack of intelligence.On both sides there will be educated/not people and intelligent/not people
It does not follow that all remainers are either intelligent/or well educated.Nor that all leavers are the same.Polls taking a sample means nothing.

I'm sure they understand statisitics roses.

I'd better tell my DH and most of our university educated friends and relatives that we are all too poorly educated to make a wise decision on voting.

Croatia, which is the latest country to have joined the EU, has one of the weakest economies in the 28-country bloc.
The eastern European country, which joined the EU in July 2013, has struggled to pull itself out of a seemingly endless recession.

and there is some below them

Switzerland is indeed a totally different kettle of fish- and if I may, the trade and other agreements Switzerland has with the EU are totally dependent on Switzerland having had to agree with the free movement of people, and adherence to all the same regulations re product safety, etc, as the EU!

Didier Burkhalter, whom I know well and comes from my region- knows the timing is all wrong, and with the Swiss France being so high to the detriment of exports, etc, and following the last Referendum on the matter- where the great majority of French speaking Switzerland (where I live and hail from) voting in favour, and the majority of the larger German speaking part against- tipping the scales against. But as said, you just can't compare the two situations at all. Chalk and cheese indeed.

We are well down the list of how much each country pays the EU - and the percentages are very helpful too.

I think practical that Switzerland is an entirely different kettle of fish to most of the other countries and was trying to change something which wasn't going down too well GJ will hopefully be able to enlighten us.