Labour MP Jo Cox shot in Birstall

What?! I was agreeing with you Granny2016. Please take the trouble to read posts properly before getting unpleasant.

The two men who murdered Lee Rigsby were British but terrorists, it follows Mair is British but a terrorist

God! There's some miserable sods on here!

and I don't actually mean you for once ab.

Good grief Jingle,

Every person who is not breaking the law must be tolerated, otherwise we do not have a tolerant society. Tolerating disgusting views does not mean one agrees with them. It usually means there is not much one can do about them except accept that some people have disgusting views. So long as such people are stopped from commiting actual crimes or are charged and punished according to the law when they do commit crimes, that's all a tolerant society can or should do.

And, of course, use better arguments against their racist or otherwise disgusting ideas.

To suggest that every person who's planning to vote out next Thursday is just as intolerant and disgusting as anything any racist has said.

ab (sorry for a grin on a sad thread)

Annie - I of course share your concern that my GC should not grow up in a world of hate. But I also think that, while there are high profile cases of acts of hate and organisations with hatred at their heart, there is a high degree of tolerance in our society in general. To give an example: when I think back to my young days, a black person was treated with suspicion and curiosity - now black people are on the TV, in films (not just as slaves!); they are football heroes, authors, professors etc. - they are visible and accepted - my DC and GC make no distinctions between people of different ethnic extraction and the whole issue is a non-issue for them and millions of others.

Whilst we will all deprecate the minority of racists that are in our midst, it would be wrong not to celebrate these positive changes in our society.

Actually I think you are spot on there jing she said that there. As one of the last things she said was that without the ability to formulate policy she could do better elsewhere.

If this man is unstable it's sad he will spend his life in jail because he believed the vile beliefs of Britain First and Farage

Jo Cox described her self as "a proud Yorkshire lass" and I'm sure she also loved our country but that pride did not turn her into a British Nationalist - quite the opposite. She was an internationalist who reached out to others with a love and compassion which was inclusive, not exclusive.

Nationalism of the type espoused by the BNP and others who may have inspired her assassin is a corruption of patriotism. It is divisive and utterly evil. We should not forget that Hitler managed to get elected by promising to make Germany great again - and look where that led.

We should learn from Jo's example. It is not too late.

@Luckygirl

The public doesn't know (and maybe never will) about Mair's exact diagnosis. I agree that mental health services are woefully inadequate, but I'm not sure what could have been done unless Mair had a diagnosis indicating he was a serious risk. Sadly, services very often don't kick in until a sufferer commits a crime.

Following on from the 'lecture' given to me by a previous poster, my sister worked at Ashworth, one of the three secure psychiatric hospitals in the country. She was also a director of community services for many years. From the accounts of Mair given by his neighbours, he behaved 'normally'. If that's the case and he hadn't told anybody about his intentions to murder, there would have been no reason to section him. The UK doesn't lock people up just because they seem a bit 'odd'. I have no doubt his medical records will be scrutinised by lawyers in the months to come, but they might not ever become public.

There seems little doubt that Mair killed Jo Cox, so we will have to wait for the defence. It could be manslaughter or his lawyers could try diminished responsibility. The magistrate has ordered a psychiatric assessment, which will probably take months. One way or the other, he will probably spend the rest of his life in a secure environment. Mair himself might not agree to a plea of insanity, because he might want his actions to be seen as rational.

Meanwhile, anybody who spouts an extreme ideology should take on the responsibility that there will always be Mairs in the community, who might take the rhetoric to its ultimate conclusion.

Luckygirl, my grandchildren are canvassing for Remain In, they fear a world which is returning to the forties, fifties and sixties. Yes black people are now accepted as are Jews, Muslims and European immigrants now fill their place . This country has always been racist , ask the children and grandchildren of the Windrush years

Whilst there are those whose views are abhorrent to most of us we do live in a country where free speech is allowed. Some views should not and are not allowed to be expressed, advocating hate crimes, inciting violence etc., but on the whole I believe that the freedom to express our views is one of the bedrocks of our freedom. If we start to ban some people's free speech where do we stop? Who decides what we should be allowed to say? There are some on GN whose views I disagree with and others who disagree with mine - does that mean that either of us should be banned from expressing those views? Having said that, with the freedom to speak our minds also comes a responsibility to accept that others will disagree with us.

@Luckygirl

I agree that the situation regarding racism has improved, but it's not an inevitable continuum. Attitudes to tolerance can go backwards and I believe they are.

I have put a link on the other thread to hopenothate, showing photos of Farage shaking hands with EDL leaders.
Anyone who thinks that EDL are not tolerated in this country should think again.
Anyone who thinks that Farage is worth voting with should look at his contacts.
Anyone who thinks Farage is okay should look at the poster he was standing in front of.
That poster is a Brexit poster; it's not just a Farage poster.
That's breeding hatred.

@sunseeker

I would hope that there is nobody with homicidal tendencies on GN and that we are rational enough to dismiss extremism. However, there are people in the community who are not that rational. I do not believe in unregulated free speech.

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/james-obriens-rant-on-the-murder-of-jo-cox-perfectly-captures-the-state-of-debate-in-britain-today/

Do people who think all supporters of Brexit think the same way also think that all Remainers think the same way? Or is there a breadth of opinion on both sides, with shades and nuances, as in most political issues?

These are rhetorical questions really because it's obvious if you've been following debates and polls that some people are 100% supportive of one side and some are only just fifty-something percent supportive of a side. And don't forget those who are having difficulty deciding which way to vote.

Tarring everyone with the same brush as you tar Nigel Farage and members of the BNP is extreme and therefore just as bad, at the other end of the spectrum, as any other extreme view. Political issues still aren't a simple black and white.

Jinglebellsfrock....My post re timing was not aimed at you,and I agree that Jo Cox has been robbed of a very bright future in a leading role.
Anniebach and Daphnedill.
Far right groups like the BNP and Britain First are not tolerated.They are more verbal and receive more media coverage than previously,but the vast majority are horrified that they gained parliamentary seats....Something they were only able to do in an area of the UK which has very high levels of immigration,lack of work and deprivation.

I am not a UKIP voter,but am increasingly tired of UKIP being bunched together with the likes of BNP.
I have friends,clients and associates who support UKIP.They are thoroughly good,honest and hard working people who despise intolerance and view UKIP as the only path away from our failing mainstream parties.
By bunching UKIP with far right thugs,you insult thousands of very decent people.
Most UKIP voters will have been shocked and saddened by the murder of Jo Cox.

Jo Cox's lasting legacy will be her children and it's her widower's stated intention to bring them up not to hate. I believe he will succeed and that they will not hate, but I have no doubt that they will be politically aware and will continue on the path their mother (and father) set out for them - to be internationalists, to support community, to champion the underdog, to speak out for the voiceless. I applaud his intent and the honour he shows his late wife in committing to this.

The smallest of lights can banish darkness.

dd If you don't believe in unregulated free speech - who do you suggests regulates it?

Sorry Granny2016. Got it wrong again.

DJ, I think the claim that the poster with Farage on it is a Brexit poster rather than a UKIP poster is incorrect.

The problem for me is that Farage seems to be the highest profile Brexit supporter so I can only assume that people who are voting Brexit agree with him and what he stands for. I know this isn't necessarily true [at least I hope it isn't] but I can't NOT think that. Especially as his jovial exterior [imo] hides something much more sinister. I am prepared to listen to the case for Brexit, it's just that it seems to be based mainly on immigration. This is the single most important thing that any of us will ever have to vote for and it's vitally important that we think it through very carefully and vote for the right reasons, and because of that we have to listen to both sides of the argument.