I don't know very much at all about anything, but I found this article interesting

Yes, I know it's another referendum thread, but I can't help that.

Apparently Labour have made a leave film I haven't looked for it yet
Labour Leave has defied Jeremy Corbyn and other members of the leadership who have tried to close down debate in Labour by giving party supporters the true picture of how the “undemocratic” EU is suppressing wages and handing power to big corporations.
The movie was a humiliating blow to former Prime Minister Gordon Brown who led the latest attempts to scare party supporters into backing Remain.
Mr Brown signed the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 which gave away many of Britain’s freedoms and committed the country to an EU Army.

Just watched this labour video Lexit the movie
It explains lots of things it takes and hour to watch
but well worth it if you need anything explaining

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq72f81kkM4
forgot to put the link

"There is... no free-trade area.

The single market is designed for French agriculture and German manufactured goods, not our service led economy...

Most small exporters will recognise the ways in which our EU partners invent technical barriers to protect their producers while our government seems powerless."

- John Longworth - former director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce in The Times

Senior defence chief Lord Guthrie switches sides in Brexit battle from Remain to Leave over 'dangerous' European army plans


Only four months ago Lord Guthrie signed a Downing Street letter from military leaders arguing that Britain would be safer in the EU. But the Field Marshall now says that was a 'mistake'.

We're told the EU makes us all stronger. But this haunting dispatch from a despairing, destitute Greece may make you change your mind
Here in Athens's Syntagma Square, just after breakfast time one weekday morning, pensioner Dimitris Christoulas put a handgun to his head and pulled the trigger, writes SUE REID. The retired pharmacist had walked out of his flat in a middle-class suburb for the last time. He locked the heavy shutters behind him, and the door where he had hung a sign saying: 'Can't Pay, Won't Pay'. In his jacket he carried a note saying his pension had been cut to ribbons and he couldn't face a future of 'raiding rubbish bins for food'.

They have abandoned plans for the European army and Cameron got the agreement that the UK would not take part in it anyway.
Greece is a great mess - it is not the fault of the EU ( except for the fact they should never have let them join) but how their Govt also choose to implement things.
All the agriculture in the EU is supported - why the UK farmers get the grants too. French farming has become much more efficient over the years and things like the butter mountain have all been sorted.
All sorts of things can be said about every movement the EU makes - but the big picture needs to be looked at - when the UK was GREAT times were very different - today it is not the same - we are no longer an industrial nation and produce very little.
You will also find many small producers saying that the EU is where they sell the great majority of their produce - Wyke farms cheese being an example. His whole business is selling to the EU and is likely to fold if there is an exit. You can show cases for both results. Dyson is another example - he wants out but has already relocated to cheaper parts of the world taking the jobs away from the UK - he wants it for purely selfish reasons.
In general the EU gives many businesses and also individuals great protection - much of this will be eroded over time - and please do not let Gove fool you into believing that the EU will want to give UK a good trade treaty - we will be neither important enough nor a big enough friend if we vote to leave. The UK will be the example to any other state which might just think of doing the same thing.

1. Senior defence chief Lord Guthrie switches sides in Brexit battle from Remain to Leave over 'dangerous' European army plans
I think a senior defence chief would know more about this than Cameron, do you still believe Cameron after all his lies?
2. The eu did let them join though and the poor people are suffering not the eu or their government.
3.yes French farmers are doing well at the expense of ours they get massive grants with what is basically a smallholding our farmers used to be rich and efficient before the eu handcuffed them with their rules.
4.We have lots of private businesses starting up that will more than compensate for the few we lose.
5.The people think the eu gave us more protection than they did when it was our unions who got most of the new laws, holidays ect.
How can a failing eu make an example of a thriving Britain?

Thanks for this thread. I have now made up my mind.

Pity the writer had to sling an insult on the end of this interesting viewpoint:

The EU is modelled to be an ‘optimal currency union’, which includes not just unbridled capital markets but also free movement of labor across borders. I am, with some important qualifications, a proponent free movement of labor. One of these qualifications is that, when you’re like the UK part of the ‘free labor’ zone of a currency union, but not part of the single currency union itself, you should have a decisive voice in the monetary and fiscal policies of the members of the currency union. As this is not really the case, the UK has, in my opinion, a reason and a motive to restrict the inflow of European labour. Do you really want your country to become the employer of last resort for other countries, solving the problems caused by their macro-economic policies failures? In my (in this case: humble) opinion I do think Brexiteers have a point here. Even though their mind set often is retarded.

The quotation is from this piece on an economics blog. Interestingly, although the writer has slung that insult in, s/he seems to be arguing by the end of the article that, logically, Brexit is a better idea. It's not a long article. Worth a read.

Twelve other military commanders still back the Remain camp to give more protection to UK from the extremists. Maybe twelve have more knowledge than one who retired some fifteen years ago - things change.

The Unions did do a lot but it was the EU who gave force to the laws - many of the EU laws were formed by UK lawyers and ratified by the EU. It was certainly the EU which gave all the temp workers rights to holiday and sick pay etc. - it cost both the employers and the Agencies a lot of money.

Private businesses will need a wide market they can access easily with the minimum fuss - particularly new ones - they will not want trade deals needing to be done individually. It is often difficult to negotiate to import/export to some countries - Brazil is an example - I know someone who wished to do this - he had a supplier and a market but was unable to get past the red tape.

French farmers are not doing well at the expense of UK ones and to call them little more than small holding is incorrect. The small Irish Farmers probably did the best of all. Farming everywhere has changed over the last twenty years and no doubt continue to evolve.

Some things need changing in the EU - no one is denying that - the atmosphere to do that is probably the best it has been for a long time. The UK did not join the much smaller EU when it could have done soon after the war when it would then have had a big say in how things were set up. If we leave now we will lose another opportunity to have a hand in the change when it comes in the near future.

I hope that should the vote be to exit that your optimistic views prove to be correct - do you have any idea of a plan B if they do not?

It will include living in the country I love, and not being ruled by a country who is ripping us off.

DAVID CAMERON’S former adviser has claimed the EU referendum is a lifeline to Britain from the "sinking ship" which is the EU.
Steve Hilton, the former director of strategy for the prime minister, also accused the Remain side of only citing experts because it suited them.
Mr Hilton has frequently criticised his former boss during the EU referendum campaign – and claimed Mr Cameron would support Brexit were he not prime minister.
He also branded some of the Remain campaign's "scare stories" as "utterly ridiculous".
The political strategist told ITV's Peston on Sunday: "It is clear that those who want to Leave the EU have won the economic argument.

Documents leaked to the Sunday Times show there have been discussions of implementing visa-free travel to the UK for Turkish special passport holders – who number over one million.
The leaked telegrams relate to the EU’s controversial deal to compensate Turkey for helping control the Syrian migrant crisis.
Janet Douglas, an official at the British Embassy in Ankara, wrote: "We will need to develop our own lines on the UK’s stance to visa-free travel for Turks".
She added: "One option would be to assess again the possibility of visa travel for Turkish special passport holders which would be a risk, but a significant and symbolic gesture to Turkey."
Dr Fox has suggested the government has not been transparent with the public over the Turkish issue.
He told the Today Programme: "It is very much against the assurances the government has given us.
"As a Conservative MP I am very worried about this.
"I think it is remarkable.
"On one hand we are being told these freedoms will not be granted.
"And yet secretly behind our backs there are discussions on going apparently about allowing [them].

Are you emigrating, practical?

oh dd you twisted my answer par for the course on remainers.

THREE dozen top businessmen yesterday urged voters to quit the “energy-sapping” European Union.
The entrepreneurs said companies will thrive once freed from the Brussels “straitjacket”.
“We’re confident that, unburdened by the energy-sapping European project, British inventiveness, flexibility and thoroughness will see the country thrive outside the EU,” they wrote.
“These attributes will ensure that our economic performance continues to outstrip that of the rest of the EU bloc.”
The 37 signatories were led by Luke Johnson, the former Pizza Express boss now heading cafe chain Patisserie Valerie.
They also included Leave.EU co-founders Arron Banks, the insurance millionaire, and property developer Richard Tice, along with Labour Leave campaigner and JML home shopping founder John Mills, Superdrug co-creator Peter Goldstein and former Tory donor Stuart Wheeler, of spread betting giant IG.

BORIS Johnson has lashed out at the Remain camp of the European Union referendum for offering a “steady and miserable erosion” of parliamentary democracy.
The former London mayor launched a scathing attack on the Remain campaign and accused them of offering “no change” to Britain’s “current democratic arrangements”.
He added: “If we vote Remain, we stay locked in the back of the car, driven by someone with an imperfect command of English, and going in a direction we don’t want to go.”
He said: “If we vote to stay then I am afraid the whole EU caravan carries blithely on; and when I think of the champagne-guzzling orgy of backslapping in Brussels that would follow a Remain vote on Friday, I want to weep.
“We must not let it happen.”
The crusading Brexit supporter also condemned David Cameron’s “pitiful” EU negotiation earlier this year.
He added: “We are not more powerful, or more influential for being around the table in Brussels – look at the pitiful results of the so-called renegotiation earlier this year.
“We are drowned out.”

Some are reporting what they have seen on face book or twitter I am not on either of these but will quote a comment I saw elsewhere
The new Battle for Britain, and Cameron isn't Nelson, Wellington, or Churchill. They wouldn't have allowed the UK to be ruled by a secretive EU power elite. They fought for Britain and won. Cameron is fighting on the other side. The EU 28 countries (soon to be 33) have overruled the UK in 72 of the last 72 votes. Cameron has no 'say'. The EU has already quit him. The EU looks after its own interests, not Britain's, and we are just a cash cow to subsidise their failed economic policies, and failed political project. They have bankrupt countries, high unemployment, uncontrolled migration, and terrorism, and poor trade with the world. They have worked against our interests and gradually pushed us down. They won't 'reform', just steamroller on to destruction.

I don't think we're being steamrollered to destruction at the moment. I thought our economy was growing? Happy to be corrected, though.

Blimey practical there's a lesson in hyperbole and myth, well done!

There has been plenty of hyperbol and myth about and an awful lot of ridicule to those who hold a different opinion to themselves.

The situation in other EU countries is also improving. All this is - same old same old- from the Briexit camp. Everyone here who believes we should leave is entitled to their opinion but they must also know - whether they will admit it to themselves or others - that the Brexit campaign has been fought on lies and the hope that a gullible public so heated about immigration will vote their way. Had they been truthful with their campaign maybe I would have had more respect for them
I saw a pi chart this morning about the proportion of UK money spent on everything. I could not find a link to put it on here - the amount spent on the EU is so laughably small - it is the smallest proportion if the lot. We would have more money to spend on things within the UK if we cut down a tiny tiny bit on foreign aid - much of that is misappropriated or is going to countries now richer than us!