Does a little bit of you...... (It's about that)

@Wilma

I just explained about Gibraltar (based on an article I read a couple of days ago).

Gibraltar is concerned about its border. At the moment, it's relatively quick and easy to travel into and out of Spain, because of the EU. Hundreds of people cross it every day to work and shop, etc. More than probably anywhere on British soil, Gibraltar thrives on free trade and free movement of people.

I do understand what you mean, Wilma. I'm certainly not in the 'doing OK' group and am worried sick about my future. There is no way in a million years I could support the values of those supporting Leave, but I've been trying hard to understand why people believe what they do. (Again, sorry to make it personal - I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet).

Why do people feel so disengaged? Why do they resent 'experts' so much? If I'm honest, what I see is a lot of whinging negativity.

I agree with you about Corbyn. I would love to support Labour and I voted for them as the best option in the last election, but I really can't see them winning a general election with the current state of the party.

Anyone know why the Gibraltar vote was so one sided?

jings if you mean the bit I quoted, for me it boils down to having no serious opposition to the Tories.

daphne I think it's about too many people not having a voice, but it's more than that because not having a voice doesn't matter quite as much if you're doing OK. It matters when you're not doing OK, and unfortunately that's where my husband and I find ourselves as we get older.

Some people have never been in the 'doing OK' group and I have spent most of my working life trying to make a difference to that group. But others find themselves in the 'not doing OK' group after a major change of circumstances. You try to prepare for the future, but you can't cover all eventualities. Sorry to make this personal, but it helps me explain what I mean.

I support the views of Jeremy Corbyn, but he's not a party leader and clearly doesn't have the support of the Labour Party anyway. Perhaps the Liberal and Labour Parties can join together to form an effective opposition. I live in hope.

Just understood the reference to Gibraltar.

Leave: 823 (4&)

Remain: 19,322 (96%)

That's pretty decisive, but not surprising.

What's Gibraltar got to do with it?

Gibraltar will vote remain, because it doesn't want to do any damage to the border with Spain. Hundreds of people cross it every day to work. Can you imagine what it would be like if people had to have visas?

@jingle

The divisions between the better and worse off have widened over the last few decades, as manufacturing has disappeared. Towns and cities which once had rich and poor now only have poor and have been abandoned in favour of the bright lights of finance, etc.

Schools in coastal towns are often rubbish, as they've become a dumping ground for pensioners and the unemployed. Housing is relatively cheap, but there's little regular work, so ghettos develop along with all the social problems. It's almost like some places have a gated community with the oiks living beyond the walls (out of site, out of mind).

Not deliberately. There will always be divisions between the better off and the less well off. How can it be otherwise outside of a communist state? and that doesn't work either.

They have obviously got an intelligent population on Gibralter. No council estates?

I agree with you, Wilma. I've been thinking about this for a while. Three of the most pro-Europe cities in the UK, London, Manchester and Cambridge, are in many ways very different, but have high numbers of immigrants. They are also areas with low(ish) unemployment. Is it a case of people not bothering too much as long as they're doing OK? Is part of the solution to make sure that all parts of the UK feel more included in decisions and wealth? It seems to me that this government has been deliberately divisive.

Bags why do you have to put these articles on so bloomin' early, or so effin' late?! My brain only really functions for about ten minutes round about 12 noon.

I haven't got a fucking clue what it's all about.

It's an excellent article. However, as someone with Socialist leanings I find it profoundly depressing because none of the three elements he thinks need addressing are happening here in the UK (I can't comment on other countries).

We need to establish new social mechanisms through which to link liberal ideas about immigration and individual rights with progressive economic arguments and a belief in the community and the collective... ...Until all three elements of a progressive outlook – a defence of immigration, freedom of movement and of individual rights, a challenge to austerity policies and the embrace of collective action – can be stitched together, and stitched into a social movement, then there will be no proper challenge to the populists.

" The sense of being politically abandoned has been most acute within the traditional working class,"

And that's why Cameron and co are most likely crapping themselves over the high turnout in the council estates.

It ain't won yet.

"the Brexit referendum" (from the article). Is that what it was? I thought it was a referendum on whether Britain should leave the EU or remain in it. And what does 'no' and 'yes' mean in the article? Badly written.

I think our referendum is just what the EU was needing. Will make a lot of the EU bigwigs think again about just how hunkydory or otherwise, things in their world actually are.

Other member states are said to be envious of our ref.

Yep, a very good read. Regardless of how one voted, and the result, I hope that the unpleasant divisiveness of this referendum will be seen as a catalyst for deeper understanding in developing changes that I hope will follow.
I've certainly found the Referendum and how it's been managed one hell of an education!

The article says it all bags Strangely enough this afternoon I listened to an interview that RT did with Romano Prodi ( ex president of the eu)
He stated that " The eu is paralysed every time it has to act decisively"
Just the sort of people you want in charge if the shit hits the fan. No surprise to me though.

Yes, I agree, jalima.

Not just in the UK, but right across the EU I think thatbags

For anyone who's interested in the beyond, whichever way the vote goes, this is a very interesting blog post by Kenan Malik in which he talks about key issues surrounding UK EU membership.

He concludes with this:
Whatever the result on Thursday, neither popular disaffection with mainstream political institutions, nor the sense among large sections of the electorate of being politically voiceless, is likely to subside. Nor will it until we begin to address directly the reasons for that disaffection.

How to contact your MEP Printable A4 sheet of contact details for UK MEPs

Ask them a question - they will be overjoyed that you have shown an interest!

Who is your MEP? find out here - List of MEPs and their constituencies.

"There are 73 UK MEPs. They are elected in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Other EU member states elect MEPs from their countries. Elections take place every five years. The next elections will be in 2019.

The UK is divided into twelve electoral regions made up of the nations and regions of the UK. Each region has between three and ten MEPs and each MEP in a region represents each person living there: Eastern - 7, East Midlands - 5, London - 8, North East - 3, North West - 8, South East - 10, South West - 6, West Midlands - 7, Yorkshire and Humber - 6, Wales - 4, Scotland - 6, Northern Ireland - 3. "

Yes I was thinking about that too. Civil servants in the UK (and most countries, France certainly) are NOT elected but have huge influence- but things have to be ratified by elected members.

I've found that those who complain the loudest about 'unelected' decision makers in Brussels a/ do not know who their MEP is and never bothered to find out and b/ didn't vote for their MEP or voted for those, like Farage- who has picked up a fat cheque from the EU as an MEP, but attended 1 out of 42 of the Fisheries Commission meetings- and then pretended to be fighting for our fishermen !!!

Who are these unelected members? There are Elected MEPs the Heads of Govt of the member countries - elected by their country and European Civil Servants! There are fewer for the whole of Europe than the UK has. These Civil Servants are ASKED by the EU Govt to look into something and come up with how it can be done (or not) and then the Heads of Govt and MEPs vote for the action. No unelected people pass anything - another myth.

ellenemery If you think that's depressing, for your own sanity DON'T read how much they spend on premoting the EU. £240,000,000 is small fry.