Brexit watch

By the way, poll card numbers are NOT tracked and matched with votes.

Daphnedill An exit poll is only as good as the persons prepared to answer it, many consider their voting preferences a confidential natter.

Moreover, Granny2016, it's known for a fact that the cities I mentioned voted Labour in the last election and Remain in the referendum.

@Joelsnan

See my last comment! I didn't base my evidence only on exit polls.

Granjura.

Churchill was for Europe as a peace keeping initiative only,not as a way of life.
He actually said....

"We are WITH Europe,but not OF Europe" and that if we were to be given the choice of being part of the land or part of the sea,we were to "...remain part of the sea".
Our own separate island.
A united federation of Europe was certainly not of his choosing.

I read this prior to the referendum,and it has remained in my head throughout.

Churchill did again and again say that a 'United States of Europe' was the only way forwards.

It works for Switzerland, and has done since the 13th C- and it works for the United States too. Where Arizona and Maine are totally different culturally and geographically, etc, and Florida and Colorado- etc, with their own Laws and culture, but united by common goals.

Read the whole Churchill speech from 1946:

www.cfr.org/europe/churchills-united-states-europe-speech-zurich/p32536

The structure of the United States of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to the common cause. The ancient States and principalities of Germany, freely joined for mutual convenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States of Europe.

But I must give you warning, time may be short. At present there is a breathing space. The cannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped. But the dangers have not stopped. If we are to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now.

Churchill, Zurich 1946.

I should clarify.that he supported the idea of a common market,but not political integration.This was his stance after the war with Germany.

Excellent speech about Labour's plight by the Shadow Defence Secretary, Clive Lewis.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeJQPR0YwnE&feature=youtu.be

I like what he says and he says it well - do try and watch it - but it makes me realise how lazy our journalists are. Our MPs go to their constituencies at the weekend but do the journalists ever chase the news these days or do they just wait for it to come to them. As far as we have been told by the BEEB and others there is no one left in the LP worthy of a Shadow cabinet seat. Did they talk to this guy - no. Has anyone else seen this guy on our news or on a more in depth programme where the journalists sit on their backsides, never going out to the meetings of MPs and people. No.

No one says ALL the poor/ disadvantaged voted leave or ALL the professional classes voted remain, just saying there is a statistical trend. We all know people who voted one way or another who don't fit the overall statistical picture, that's not to say it's not worthy of academic analysis. There are numerous anecdotes, a barrister friend voted leave because he hated the governments cutting back on legal aid and wanted to give them a kick up the a***. He's got loads of money, a second home and a few extra euros on his holiday in Tuscany is neither here nor there. He can't be counted as poor/ disadvantaged . But that's doesn't negate the significance of generalised trends.

Granjura,apologies if this comment appears twice,we had a power cut while posting,so it may duplicate.

I haven,t read the full 1946 speech,but I will.
Ted Heath did say that Churchill did not envisage Britain being a full member of a Federal Union in 1946.
In the Commons in 1950,Churchill is quoted as saying that 'at present' he could not see Britain being a member of a Federal Union of Europe.

He discussed the whole project with I think it was Roosevelt during the war and they had agreed between themselves that the only way to stop the eruption of wars between European Countries was to have some for of trade a and more agreement. Europe had been fighting itself for about a thousand years on and off - so many generations lost mainly men in these conflicts.

That was my over riding reason for voting to remain. Arguments over trade, immigration, currencies etc can be settled by discussion but once war of any sort is declared lives start to be lost.

Sajid Javid has set off to India to broker a trade deal. EU started to negotiate one in 2007. Still unfinished. Nine years!!!

Concluding paragraph:
"Whatever people think of Brexit now, attitudes will shift markedly if Britain ends up with a trade deal with India before the EU can manage it. That is, after all, what Switzerland has managed to do with Japan. While the government appears to be preoccupied with a leadership crisis, in dispatching Sajid Javid to India it is showing signs that it knows what it needs to do in order to grab the Brexit bull by the horns".

Several of the countries on his list have said that they will not agree to anything until after the UK makes a deal with the EU so they can see what position to start from. Of course if UK gets a deal near to what we have now it could mean that we will still be a useful conduit to the European market.

Have any of you had the opportunity to watch the debate on the 5th July from Strasbourg.re Brexit?

It matters not one jot what Churchill said , nobody knows what he would be saying decades on.

BBC Parliament ran the debate live and has twice showed recordings, including from this morning onwards, just finished.

I have listened to it twice and it is not the case we are being 'laughed at' sadly some MEP's eiher show total distain and want to hurt the UK whilst others show statesmanship and accept the interest of ALL the 28 countries in the EU must be taken into account and call for friendly cooperation to succeed in doing so.

The predominant call is for the EU to reform as it is not working for the 'people' but for the elite.

I saw the Belgian MEP give his speech and what he said about Farage and giving the EU gip about the way things were run etc.

Churchill had a vision and so it did matter at the time. Things do change over the years and decisions can also impact for years.

Of course it needs for all the countries to work in everyone's interest but if they wish the rest of the 27 to remain as a unit they will not want to be too kind in the deal the UK is given, and it will definitely not be better than the agreements they have with each other being members.

Welshwife

That is the view of those MEP's that wish to put the boot into the UK but I hope the calls from the many for a friendly, commensense, economically sound approach will win the day.

There were many for Junkers hard line approach to the UK, although he has supposedly toned it down a bit, but many more who felt Junker and the Commission were part of the problem. Some calling for his resignation even.

Interestingly whilst all agree the EU needs reform, some wish to do so by further integration towards a Federal State, others are showing signs this is not necessarily the case .

Interesting viewing.

Meanwhile, talks are going on informally to discuss the position of EU nationals in the UK and British nationals in the EU:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/philip-hammond-eu-leaders-happy-to-hold-informal-brexit-talks

Here is a link to a Ted talk on Brexit which may be of interest www.ted.com/talks/alexander_betts_why_brexit_happened_and_what_to_do_next?utm_source=email&source=email&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ios-share

Thanks for the link Actoniann Ted talks make you realise yet again how lucky we are to have the internet.

Excellent link, actoniann. Thank you!

Excellent, thank you.

If it's true that more young people voted in the referendum than thought, it gives me some hope, because we'll be back in the EU in time. I don't accept that it was the right decision for the country and I don't think I ever will. Unfortunately, we won't have the concessions we now have.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Why the constant reference to Churchill as if he was the Oracle? That was then, you can only deal with the now, whilst learning from the past. There is no reason why, in time we can work with the EU, but not be part of it. Spain, Italy, Greece are all broke, I would like to know where they will get the money to finance the EU. I would genuinely like to know.

Did you mean 'can't'?

If we are going to work with the EU, why shouldn't we be part of it? We currently have more MEPs than almost any other country and concessions which other countries envy. We could have had a really big say, if our MEPs had actually done their job.

The questions of Spain, Italy and Greece are to do with the Eurozone, of which the UK is not a part.