Can a referendum be valid if won on lies?

For once I agree with you, niggly. I despair at anti-intellectualism. The internet has exposed us to all sorts of fruitloops who profess to be 'experts' on everything from diet to cars. However, some people really can claim some expertise, especially if they're professors at a British university, and I, for one, am willing to learn from them.

If people don't want to know how anything works, that's their choice, but I believe they've given up the right to have a say. I still have the impression that the referendum vote was for some people a protest vote. I can't blame them for wanting to protest, but I think they chose the wrong means to do so, because they're not going to achieve or gain anything and could end up even worse off and more frustrated. It makes it even worse to know that some of this opinion was 'manipulated' by people with big money for their own ends. It makes a mockery of democracy when people can 'buy' votes.

It's sad that people see society as 'them and us', because it doesn't have to be like that. My paternal grandfather came from a fishing family in the North East, but did well at school, took an exam to get into the civil service, was promoted and ended up as the head of his department and was given a CBE for his efforts. I've always been proud of his achievement and am disappointed that apparently I should now despise him for being a rider on the gravy train.

Still true today?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6lV-uqpclc

Well dd I certainly don't think that of your grandfather. I think he obviously worked hard and deserved where he got, no doubt about it. My great grandfathers father(!) was a Parchment Maker, his father a Fellmonger. G.father came from Bath to Oxford in 1872 became a Master Tailor, opened a Gentlemans Outfitters Establishment (!) did extremely well, became an Alderman, a big house complete with staff! a pillar of society; Good for him. I too feel proud of the way he pulled himself up from virtually no where,but not everyone can do that.

Where were you in February, niggly, when Cameron came back from the EU and told us about all the negotiations he had had and the concessions he had been given by the EU?
You cannot blame Cameron for the fact that you never knew. Lots of us did.

Our political masters have learned how to put things into simple language I fear. 'Take back control', and 'we want our country back'. Say that enough times and it's all they need to do to get the votes they want.

I don't remember Cameron saying that...oh, but of course he was in the Remain camp, wasn't he? Still spreading fear and dread though.

Oh and 'Independence Day' - Boris never answered a single question in that debate, waffled and didn't have a clue- but he knew how to win the people and get a standing ovation- yep simple- the lying toad.

Yes, Tegan, obviously the remain side used too many syllables in their messages, so they couldn't be understood.

And leave them all in the lurch now, granjura.
Never had a plan, just a few simple to understand slogans.

Yes, because the population of England and Wales is obviously so thick...

your words Ana - sadly. People are hurting, and hurting badly, because of what this Governement has done, to education, to the NHS, to cuts, to care, to social services- and when people are hurting, they need to find culprits to hang their anger on- and Farage, and to some extent Boris and others- handed them immigration on a plate.

I was obviously replying to durhamjen's dig at 18.22 granjura.

Well that's as maybe dd, but although I heard DC speak on numerous occasions during the campaign, I didn't hear one word about his success in those negotiations and neither did anyone I know. I would have thought it would have been his trump card, and used again and again, but perhaps I and others were asleep at that particular point.
I'm not sure dd that we can have a system that requires people to have a certain knowledge of politics else they forfit their vote!! Smacks a bit of paternalism! On the other hand politics today are so complex, how can anyone other than the educated understand what they're voting for?! tis a problem!

It is a problem indeed. Especially when any attempt at giving useful, valid and expert information is either deemed boring or bullying- and when even top politicians tell people not to inform themselves and listen to expert advice.

People do not need formal qualifications to make informed decisions, just an open mind and a bit of time and patience.

He did say that he'd secured an agreement whereby immigrants would not be eligible for benefit until they'd been here (and worked) for 4 years but that it won't go through now because of us leaving the EU. I think he said that when DD and the audience were questioning him. But, as with most things in the remain campaign they fell on deaf ears because they weren't exciting enough (and couldn't be fitted into a nice little soundbite). And he couldn't fit in the words 'take back control'.' I've managed to take back some control' doesn't look very good on the side of a bus. Those who keep telling us to look on the positive side could only take negative things away from the negotiations; you rarely get 100% of what you want in negotiations...it's all about compromises (also not very exciting).

.....and, I might not have been marching and campaigning when I was in my early twenties, but I've been fighting and campaigning ever since for what I think is right and just, and some of you can laugh at me as much as you like but I'll keep on fighting this. It's for my children and grandchildren and yours too....

@niggly post 18.12.12

No, I know they can't, which is why (as a comprehensive school teacher for nearly 30 years) I always tried to develop EVERY pupil, whatever his/her ability. Ironically, pupil-centred education became much derided. I tried to offer opportunities to all my pupils, but didn't look down on them if they chose not to take those opportunities.

However, I object to those people who chose not to take the opportunities looking down on people who tried to offer the opportunities and succeeded in becoming 'experts' through sheer hard work and scholarship. I think there are people who wallow in being a victim.

I also object to people who, through privilege, accident of birth and luck in life, look down on those less fortunate than themselves, including 'I'm alright Jack' types.

Make of that what you will!

I'm not laughing, Tegan. I try to do the same for my own children.

@niggly

Cameron actually achieved quite a bit in his negotiations - immigrants wouldn't have been able to claim most state benefits for four years, which would have affected any who though that the UK was the 'land of milk and honey'. I don't know why this wasn't shouted from the rooftops, because it should have been.

No, ana, they're not thick. They chose not to want to know.

I think that bit at least was in the public awareness, it's just that all the semi-agreements arrived at depended firstly on our voting to Remain, and secondly on their being agreed by all the other EU countries. Hardly a solid basis on which to convince the sceptical.

And you have no idea why people voted Out, dd. You're just tarring everyone with a different opinion to yours with the same brush.

DC also told us that in the event of Brexit he would, on Friday morning, immediately invoke article 50; well he didn't! no surprise of course because it will first have be agreed by Parliament, but why say it in the first place when you know it's not true.
I'm not laughing at you Tegan, why would I? You conduct your hopes and fears as you see fit as do I, nothing to laugh at about that.

@Ana

I haven't a clue what you're going on about. I hope you do.

I have never tarred anybody with the same brush.

Ana, I for one would love to know. So if your reasons to vote OUT were different to most, why don't you tell us. Thanks.