Could Labour 'split'. Tom Watson calls off talks.

Anniebach I will not withdraw my comments. The title of the thread, started on 17 March by POGS was "Anti-Semitism in Labour Party and Universities"

Since you appear to have forgotten the content of the substantial number of posts you made on that thread, here are a few of them:

22.3.16 "So Corbyn is a threat to the Jewish community, how strange over 6 new MPs at the last election are Jews, how strange Kaufman is one of the longest service MPs."

24.3.16 11.26 "to suggest Corbyn may be anti-semitic because of who he speaks to makes Mo Mowlam an IRA sympathiser."

27.3.16 9.00 (In answer to Venus) " ... Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is a disgrace .... this is what makes people angry, nothing to do with anti-semitism, but you use pogroms and the Holocaust as an excuse for the persecution of others .."

27.3.16 13.25 "Corbyn's terrorist friends Venus? Mo Mowlam was accused of having terrorist friends and Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist for years". (You later said that you had had a conversation with Mo Mowlam about this).

27.3.16 "POGS what has Christianity got to do with anti-semitism? I hope you were thinking of the old - the Jews crucified Christ, offensive at any time but at Easter?"

27.3.16 22.05 Venus replied to you "I find your post concerning the crucifixion totally inflammatory and offensive ..... the Jews had no control over who killed Jesus. It's people like you that have caused anti-semitism throughout the centuries. It is a venomous hate statement".

27.3.16 23.55 You said "the hatred [of Jewish people] seemed to halt following WW2, now it has gone to the other extreme - any race can be criticised but not the Jews, criticise any Jew and one is anti-semitic."

I am not, as you say, "stirring up venom" (this is actually what Venus said of you). I am saying that not so long ago you were making statements that completely contradict what you now say. Additionally, while you are now flinging accusations of bullying and anti-semitism around, at least one person perceived some of the things you said then to be anti-semitic. You are constantly making references to Corbyn being anti-democratic, untrusworthy, disloyal, anti-semitic, etc., etc., and suggest that his supporters are mindless members of a sort of perverted "cult". To back up this idea of Momentum being a "cult", you recently described its slogan as being "we live for him" when in fact, while presumably trawling the internet for anything to discredit Momentum, you had mistaken a Christian organisation called Momentum for the political organisation Momentum. I don't recall there being a proper apology for this slur.

Just because you have been in the Labour Party for 50 years and have, or had, personal friendships with high profile Labour politicians (several of whom - including Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Mo Mowlam, the Kinnocks - you have identified in various threads) does not give you the right to malign newer members - or members who had also joined the party in their youth but had left in frustration and disillusionment.

The voice you can hear most loudly is Ruth Smeeth's, because there was a camera and microphone placed next to her.

I agree with you absolutely, trisher. RS really didn't seem that upset, but that's not the impression that the headlines and subsequent articles in the media gave.

I watched the clip several times, failed to understand what the heckler said , people in the room were obviously annoyed with him

I watched the clip of the meeting as well, couldn't be bothered to comment. It seemed to me that the abusive rant complained of was one man saying something very quietly who was then screamed at by a number of other people who drowned out what he was saying (wonder if he complained about this?). Ruth Smeeth didn't seem to be crying when she stood up, so I suppose she must have started as she reached the door. A mountain out of a molehill in my opinion.

Remembers the thread Eleothan, thr comment you selected ! From a long ,long post from Venus and I had said what I have said this evening , the Jews had the choice to free Barabus or Christ and they chose to free Barsbus . So no I didn't make a mistake
Eleothan, good try to stir up venom , you failed

I've watched the video of what happened several times, as I'm sure you have...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFfqY8MoY50

It strikes me that the activist (forgotten his name) didn't say one thing which could be construed as antisemitic in the Q and A session following the presentation. He said, “I saw the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP, you can see who is working hand-in-hand.” In his later conversation with Corbyn, which was also caught on film, he repeated the accusation about the 'Torygraph'.

Ruth Smeeth then issued a statement, “This morning, at the launch of the Chakrabarti Inquiry into antisemitism, I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional antisemitic slurs to attack me for being part of a ‘media conspiracy’. It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms Chakrabarti’s report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing.”

What the activist said could possibly be described as a 'verbal attack', but I really don't accept that he used 'traditional antisemitic slurs to attack me for being part of a ‘media conspiracy’. He even claimed that he didn't know that she was Jewish, although there's no way of telling whether that's true. Corbyn couldn't have apologised for an antisemitic slur, because one hadn't taken place. Shami Chakrabarti did apologise to her and it's on Ruth Smeeth's Twitter account, but that wasn't reported in the media.

Ruth Smeeth doesn't seem like a shrinking wallflower and I'm sure she'll face worse than that as an MP. It could be that she's sensitive about about collaboration with outsiders, because she was named as a source of information for the CIA in Chelsea Manning's leaked emails on Wikileaks. She's denied it, but the email is available online along with all the other Wikileaks data. It could also be that she was one of the 'traitors' who was about to vote against Corbyn.

It seems that:

a) The press conferenece was badly managed. The Labour Party must have known it would be widely reported and organisers should have been extremely careful whom they let anywhere near a microphone. The activist used it as an opportunity to further his own cause about lack of black faces in the room, but he wasn't antisemitic.

b) The media then went on to misrepresent what actually happened and talked about Smeeth leaving in tears after antisemitic attack, etc. Some of them even implied that the reason she was upset was a result of what Corbyn had said about comparing IS and Israeli leaders. However, that wasn't true. Some of the language used made it all sound much more aggressive than it actually was and it overshadowed the actual report.

Can I just say that I have not said that it is OK that Eisen is a holocaust denier, what I did say is that he had a right as a Jewish person to examine the history of that period and to draw his own conclusions (which I disagreed with) and that I understood the fact that he considered there was no reason why the Holocaust should be the only genocide that should never be carefully researched and examined.The problem with half the posters on these threads is that they deal in broad generalisations and fail to appreciate anything which requires serious thought.

Eleothan, no idea what you are on about , please provide the title of the thread you are referring to do I can defend myself , if you cannot then withdraw your accusation please.

One thing I do stand by regarding the crucifixion , the Jews had the choice between releasing Barabus or Christ , they chose Barabus , I don't condemn Jews for something which happened two thousand years ago ,that's daft .

My posts on Corbyn are not hysterical , I post what to me is true , if anyone is bordering on hysteria it is you, the more Corbyn is criticised the nastier you get .

The title of the thread please or withdraw your accusations

Iam, yes we have come together with shared dismay . I think you are right that a Jew can be anti Semitic , I know Christians who are in truth so far from the teachings which our faith is based on. I fear holocaust deniers because years from now there will be no one who knew or heard victims of these camps and future generations may believe the deniers , this would be just to awful. I knew a lovely lady who went out to Germany at the end of the war, she worked on repatriation of prisoners , a deeply committed Christian but her faith was tested by what she heard and saw . We must always speak out against these deniers ,it's what the survivors asked man to do.
The Jewish MP was the final straw for me , I found the lack of support for her a disgrace

This will sound sooool dramatic but with the party being in such turmoil and talk of splits I feel I am going to be homeless . Yes you are right, all is not well , it has never been as bad as this, it was grim when darling Michael Foot led us to that disastrous 1883 loss and the fight back .

Anyway if the party splits I have decided to follow Gordon Brown - no fear of him leading me into the Tory party . Keep strong

Anniebach You have made many accusations about Corbyn.

Earlier in the year, on a thread started by POGS, you made several statements in relation to the allegations of anti-semitism in the Labour Party, for example:

"You use the pogroms and the Holocaust as an excuse for persecution" [of the Palestinians}

Venus replied as follows to a post in which you referred to the crucifixion of Jesus:

"I find your post concerning the crucifixion totally inflammatory and offensive ......... the Jews had no control over who killed Jesus. It's people like you that have caused anti-semitism throughout the centuries. It is a venomous hate statement."

You later posted:

"The hatred [of Jewish people] seemed to halt following WW2, now it has gone to the other extreme - any race can be criticised but not the Jews, criticise any Jew and one is anti-semitic".

Now you seem to be portraying yourself as someone taking the "moral high ground" and continue to post hysterical comments about Corbyn and the people and organisations that support him, when it was only a couple of months ago that you were making the above statments which - as demonstrated - some people, perhaps understandably, perceived as anti-semitic.

You have said you were mistaken about Corbyn - that he was not the man you thought he was. That's fair enough - I expect many people have changed their minds about various politicians - I certainly did about Blair. But that doesn't really explain your previous comments about Jewish people - were those remarks a mistake as well?

Oh gosh, thank you Petra , not so sure about strength of character I admit I sometimes cry when posting so really I am a wimp.

Anniebach, I want to say out loud how much I admire your honesty and integrity. Your posts over the years since I joined gransnet have been honest and from your heart. We haven't always shared the same views but in recent months we've met in our dismay about what's happening to the labour party and the impact of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. It's impossible not to recognise the turmoil you have and are experiencing about the labour party. I share your distress, as do many labour voters.

You are absolutely right in your comments about holocaust deniers, the Israeli governments behaviour towards the Palestinians and your brave enough to stand your ground. A holocaust denier is exactly that. I don't share trisher's view that because he is Jewish, it's somehow ok. I have direct experience of a Jewish individual who was anti semitic, married someone with the same views and raised their children to be anti semitic. The family lived in the middle of a Jewish community and maintained contact with the Jewish side of their family, only to sneer and talk that side of the family down. This is one personal experience, I don't pretend to have any formal research evidence that being Jewish doesn't automatically mean you aren't anti semitic.

I know nothing about the concerns daphnedill raises about the female Jewish MP involved in the recent incident. I do have friends in both London and Manchester Jewish communities, liberal Jewish families, some practice their faith, others don't. None support the Israeli governments actions in Palestine. All are united in expressing anxiety about rising anti semitism in their local labour parties since Jeremy was elected.

All is not well, no matter how much we'd like it to be.

Once again anniebach has shown strength of character. She has fought her corner proudly. She didn't throw the towel in when the thread was going very much against her.

For some this is a difficult time obieone, again I can only speak for myself , it is not just when general elections occur than I get involved with the Labour Party, we hold local events, this weekend we have a litter blitz in town. Next week a coffee morning and craft sale proceeds for a local charity and so it goes on through the year , the centre for people who have financial problems etc , some of our younger members are on a charity cycle ride across the mountain roads, again for local charities . Difficult to explain how big a part it does play , thus it has always been and the concern there is no one in parliament fighting for the vulnerable , the very people the party was born to help. I feel let down but I feel even more for the people who are suffering because of the Tory government .

Anniebach

Thank you.

Oh gosh, POGS I am so sorry, I really was distressed at that time , we'll still am , more cross really . Anyway I really am sorry

Annie

Anniebach

I have offered you my 'respect' for your honesty as well you know!

My post of Wed 13th July 23.57. states:-

Anniebach

This will not be appreciated in some quarters but 'Respect'.

I posted this after you posted:-

POGS., he shouldn't be a MP. I am glad you mentioned what Kinnock endured. I defended Corbyn against you, I was so wrong. I am devastating by all this and Eleothan, I don't care a fig ok - it is my party,

I find it even more 'amusing' that posters are using me as a reason to not post about Labour, that is pure bloody irony, AGAIN.

I think that the Labour Party[the bit that has Jeremy Corbyn in it] is looking like a laughing stock, so I can understand why durhamjen is not liking this thread any more.

I dont think I have seen any poster say they are enjoying the falling apart, though I could be wrong.

In some ways I can understand POGS post a bit, as she has been banging a very lonely drum for months. [But she has said thankyou I think several times for you apologising ab?] I think most posters have been impressed by your several apologies ab.]

I keep think what the New Labour bit will be called and how it will form, and whether it will make alliances?

Corbyn not voting with his party for years, should perhaps have been a bigger warning to all than it was. He has never been loyal or even agreed with it on 500 occasions or something like that. So not sure why he would now.

I am neither a 'right winger' nor am I enjoying the falling apart of the Labour Party, and I don't believe that anyone on here is either.Our political system works because ( usually) there is a strong Opposition, and it is never in the best interest of a country to have a weak one.Djen you choosing to not talk about it ( because you don't like it) seems bizarre and akin to sticking one's head in the sand.In any case, you can hardly avoid it with tv/radio/ newspapers talking of little else, so why try and get other Labour voters on Gransnet to avoid the subject?

I so agree Tegan but they get away with it

I did find a list of newspaper apologies after putting lies on front pages; they usually appear several pages in and take up about two sentences. imo if something in a newspaper is a lie the apology should take up the same amount of space as the original article.

The media rarely retract regardless of what damage they do Daphne

Ab, I'm not talking about anything else and I've stated at least twice that I think Corbyn is totally unsuitable, but in this instance I believe he's been smeared. All that stuff about Oxford Union Labour Students has been shown to be a scam, although I didn't see anything in the mainstream media to retract the accusations.

Jen after POGS admitting it amused her I will say no more about the Labour Party , plenty of others matters to discuss [