Military coup in Turkey

Unfortunately it seems to have failed,

No, fortunately it has failed. The current Turkish government is a legitimate government, democratically elected.

It may be autocratic and trying to move away from the secular government decreed by its constitution to a more Islamist form but 52% of the Turkish people voted for it in their last election, which is more than can be said of the British government for the last 30 or 40 years.

No coup, by a small group of people who oppose a democratically elected government is ever a good thing.

Are you sure it is democratic M0nica. It didnt sound like it from what I heard on the news.

And why isnt the British government democratic?

It is democratic because it was elected into power with 52% of the vote. The elections were fair and free. Whatever Erdegan is doing in power, if the Turks do not like it they will be able to vote him out at the next election. That is what democracy is. Free elections at regular intervals.

I am not defending Erdegan's administration. It does not appeal to me, but as he has been re-elected several times it presumably does appeal to the majority of Turks.

I never said the British government was not democratic. I said that no British government has succeeded in getting 52% of the vote (except for the referendum) in the last 30 - 40 years. All our governments have been formed by parties that received less than 50% of the vote. this does not make them undemocratic as they were elected in open and free elections.

observer.com/2016/03/turkey-is-now-a-democracy-in-name-only/

Written on 8 Mar this year in the Observer.

I think it depends on what you mean by democracy, if you think Turkey is democratic.

It is not democratic in my opinion.

Having said all that, I have never been there,and I dont think I know anyone who is Turkish. How about you?

What difference does it make whether one knows a citizen of the country concerned? I do not know any North Koreans, that doesn't stop me saying, correctly, that it is governed by a family of brutal hereditary dictators.

I do not believe everything I read in the papers, not even the Observer with whose politics I am generally in agreement.

I make no defence of Erdogan or his oppressive policies but he was elected into power by 52% of all Turks and they can, if they wish, vote him out at the next election. Presumably those who vote for him think that a brutal regime that limits civil liberties and tortures its prisoners, is just the kind of government they want. But while free and fair elections take place and the electorate can decide what government they want at regular intervals, the country is a democracy.

George Bush Junior was a freely and fairly elected President, who had most of his country behind him when he was torturing Iraqis and Afghanis, generally they supported him over illegal renditions and the appalling treatment of those held at Baghran Prison and Guantanamo Bay. It does not mean the USA is not a democracy.

obieone when I lived in Bulgaria I went there many times with a friend who bought her gold and silver there. We would arrive at Istanbul coach station at 5 in the morning, then have to wait around until business opened. We always felt safe.

[I do know a North Korean for what it is worth. Well I know someone who knows him well. He doesnt live there now!]


What difference does it make whether one knows a citizen of the country concerned

I do not believe everything I read in the papers, not even the Observer with whose politics I am generally in agreement.

M0nica. You answered your own question.

HOw long ago was that petra if you dont mind me asking.

There was a thread on gransnet fairly recently about what is democracy. I think it was going at a time I wasn't on gransnet much. I will go and have a look at it tomorrow. I suspect it will enlighten me somewhat as to what counts as democracy.

obieone 10 yrs ago. All I do know now, through my Bulgarian friend is that economically the country is doing very well.

Do elections have to be regular to ensure democracy? British elections were called at the whim of whoever was the Prime Minister until quite recently, although they had to be called within five years of the previous one.

Democracy is what you decide it is. We have parliamentary democracy, which means we elect representatives then leave the decision-making to them. Unless we don't like their decision, when we call for a referendum. We democratically elect a leader of the Labour party, but then have our decision challenged. We have a Church of England, and tolerate it because it doesn't try to enforce its teachings. Many of us quite liked it when Thatcher inched towards dictatorship instead of striving for (democratic) concensus.

Turkey is a country of 2 halves.
Half would sit comfortably in the EU where they would have the freedom of speech which should be available to all,and where they would fit into the Western way of life.
The others are supporters of the strong Islamist ,Erdogan.The man is a wretch.
His appointment is as a result of a democratic vote no doubt,but Turkey is far from being a democracy.Erdogans 'democracy' sees judges sacked,media monitored and journalists incarcerated.
Not to mention the Kurds and human rights abuse.
I would,t put anything past Erdogan and could well see this 'coup' as being of his own making.
Best thing to do with Turkey is split it down the middle,Erdogan and his supporters in one half,the remainders in the other with a leader who will allow them to live freely in a true democracy.

@ExaltedWombat.
We had the power to smack Maggies knuckles.

He's a horrible and dangerous man (in my opinion) but it seems the majority of people in Turkey support him.

There is an argument, of course, that if a person imprisons journalists and anyone else who opposes him/her and closes down news networks that don't follow the "party line", then can such a country be described as "democratic"? Having said that, I'm not sure that a successful military coup in Turkey would have ended well as it would have needed to forcefully suppress all those people who support Erdogan.

A democracy in its purist sense is rule by the people. Classical Athenian democracy never extended beyond a few thousand important people. It just meant that it wasn't a top down autocracy.

Most democracies have elections of some sort, so they are rule by the majority. Democracies don't have to guarantee minority rights or opinions, which is why I think that they can be dangerous (and why I don't like referendums).

I could have written this post. Myself ! I agree
I know many Turks through business and as friends - I have a strong connection with the people and the word democracy is irrelevant - the country is divided and is going backwards -

Monica
It makes a huge difference if you know citizens of a country!!! - and understand from their perspective - Democracy is a very veiled word - trust me I know many people who are worried fir their country -I have done business there for years
People do not know Turkey -they think it's a middle eastern package holiday destination -they liken it to Arab states in their minds but it is a country of such contrasts - in One area of Istanbul you could be in sophisticated New York or in another in the Middle East
Believe me the educated and informed do not view suppression as democratic and his supporters are the other Turks that he sent out onto the streets the night of the coup to fight and die for him - I rest my case

Very true lostmyglasses

My daughter lived and worked in Ankara for two years. This was in the early 90s. She is still in touch with many of the friends she made there, and it is true that the country is slipping 'backwards' away from secularism slowly by surely.

I've no idea who was behind this coup, but the Turkish military have had to step in several times to protect secular democracy. The President may have the support of just over half the populace but that doesn't mean this support is the kind that will support western values. Iran was a very different, modern-facing country before it fell under the sway of the ayatollahs.

Interesting that you mention Iran ,Anya.

My ex partner travelled from the UK to India by motorbike , through Turkey and into Iran.When he reached Tehran drivers shook his hand,welcomed him to 'their country' and guided him through the heavy traffic.Others serviced his bike for free ,showed him around their city and invited him into their homes for meals.
They told him how saddened they were by their reputation in the West,and asked him to tell people in the UK that "We are the same as you".
It is a beautiful country with some very lovely people.Since his trip,I have always felt saddened by their lack of freedom.

I lived and worked in turkey for 13 years, I was there when the AKP party came to power. Erdogan's policies did wonders for Turkey economically, I saw a huge rise in affluence for many Turks and it is no wonder that the people are loyal to him. Unfortunately as with so many previous idealists, the power and loyalty given by the populace to him went to his head and he became more and more power hungry.

A military coup will not work as too many Turks still remember the previous coups, particularly the 1980s coup, and how they suffered under it. But of course the younger generation having lived under the freedom of Western influence have become more and more disillusioned with Erdogan's increasing authoritarian manner and until such time as he sees where and why he is alienating people thing swill continue with the flashpoints of resistance.

His arrest of so many military personnel is an example of his muddled thinking, this will only further alienate the people who feel he always goes too far.

Having said all that, the only reason I came back was ill health and if I was fit enough not to have to rely on regular medication I would be back there like a shot. Turkey is a wonderful country full of wonderful people.

lostmyglasses Please do not make assumptions about my knowledge of Turkey. Politically it is a very complex country. On one hand in the cities there is an educated and sophisticated elite with far more connections with its western neighbours than its eastern ones. But the majority of its voters live in rural areas, work in agriculture and are much more conservative and far more islamic in their outlook. It is they that vote for Erdogan, keep him in power and accept his increasingly dictatorial behaviour.

Although Kemal Atatturk imposed a secular constitution on his country, many opposed it and wanted a more Islamic constitution and many still think that way.

In addition Turkey has had to cope with disaffection in the area of Kurdistan that lies in Turkey. At one time the government did do a deal with the PKK, the main terrorist group, but as the province of Kurdistan in Iraq has become moved far closer to being de facto an independent state, while still officially a province of that country, Kurdish opposition in Turkey has revitalised and more terrorist attacks are occurring.

Turkey is in a difficult place, its urban populations want to look west but its rural populations do not. It has the problem of the Syrian civil war on one border, and its problems with the Kurds.

Do you want to know anything else about my knowledge of Turkey and its political problems?

I believe this so called coup was a "set up" Just to give the powers that be an excuse to arrest and imprison anyone who had the courage to speak out against them.
What did the 3,000 judges have to do with the failed coup?