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Beginning to distrust Jeremy Corbyn

(1001 Posts)
M0nica Mon 08-Aug-16 19:57:08

What ever else I may think about JC, I did believe he was a man with principles, who stuck to them.

However, I am beginning to doubt that he is the sea-green incorruptible he is made out to be. Last year he said on television that he saw no case for appointing new peers and would not do so. Now he has nominated Shami Chakrabati fora peerage.

We now read that in a news interview he has suggested he could remain at the helm of the party even after a general election defeat.

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 16:56:38

Jrn, what proof do you want that he didn't take part in one tv debate ? What proof do you want that Shami joined the party the same time as she took on an independent ! rnwuiry into racism in the party or she has been elevated to the lords? He did csmpsignjncampaignjng to get Militsnts bsck in the party, I did post where you could find this proof.

In no way do I want to return the the politics of the eighties , this is your desire

I am against zoos so never go near one, Shami is against the lords but accepts a title and s seat there , oh deary me

Day6 Mon 22-Aug-16 16:26:57

Ab - "The country will not vote for a far left government and to gain power Labour needs the vote of the centre ground."

I agree, but there's the dichotomy.

The Conservative party has had to move much more to the centre to get the vote of 'the man in the street.' They've done it successfully, like it or not.

It's not just business men/women and toffs who think Tories can run the country better. The Conservatives had to wise up, support working classes and offer an alternative. Theresa May has pledged her support for working towards a fairer Britain. (Whether she delivers or not is another matter.)

This is where Blairism failed because it was hard to discern where the lines were drawn between the two parties and two sets of MPs.

It's almost as if people have to be dyed-in-the-wool left or right wingers, but I feel we've moved away from that. I don't understand people who say "My Dad was Labour, so I am." Labour of old was a very different party to the one we've seen in recent times. It was much-needed too, because the Conservative party was also very different, and indeed the party the wealthy tended to favour.

I think those distinctions have all but disappeared and Labour can no longer claim to have the monopoly on compassion. You cannot accuse Theresa May of being unfeeling.

Perhaps this is why Corbyn is having such a rough ride.

He does provide an alternative and he is trying to resurrect some forgotten, valuable Socialist ideals. I am sorry, but next to him, Smith doesn't provide an alternative; imo he provides a continuation of a Labour party one could hardly distinguish from a Tory party. He comes across as glib and insincere, and that is a criticism I could never level at Jeremy Corbyn.

I want my politicians to be principled and not of the sound-bite and nothing else variety. I hope May can deliver and is more than a sound-bite, and I hope JC remains the leader of the Labour Party. If it means the party splits and is reformed, and two factions emerge, I still think Corbyn will have the heart of most left wingers in this country.

If you are a moderate ie: centre left, or centre right, of late there really hasn't been much to choose between the sides.Left wingers might say there isn't a human face to the right, but I think that's now a very tired argument.

The NHS (for example) is a vote-winner, both sides know it, and Labour cannot keep claiming the Tories will destroy it. When all is said, our welfare services depend on the economy, so we need a strong one to merely maintain the status quo. Most families want housing, health and education services to thrive, no matter where on the political spectrum they stand. OK, so many have the income not to have to worry about such issues, but hopefully, their tax bills, their input also funds the services the middle and low income, and unemployed people of this country rely on. It's a very fine balance isn't it, and I firmly believe a government, of any persuasion, has a duty to treat ALL people fairly.

Corbyn is standing up for the down-trodden, perhaps more so than any Labour politician in recent memory and I applaud him for that. He reminds us that an opposition government will have different priorities if elected. As onlookers we are observing quite an interesting development in politics, and also a reminder perhaps of how times change, given JC is the socialist many socialists don't seem to want.

My main point (sorry for the waffling) is that a bland left wing, a centre left party, is perhaps as incapable of winning people over as Jeremy Corbyn is for uniting the party.

I do understand those who say JC is from a different time, but he is saying things which give him a huge following because they excite and inspire. I don't think that is a bad thing, but the miner's helmet and pick-axe and country squire riding with the hounds are two extremes that have to be buried given the some of the miners' children now have mortgages and 4x4s and the squire has sold his crumbling country pile and manages without a manservant.

Between the food bank and the four bed detached there is heck of a lot of middle ground. Most of us are slap bang in the middle with leaning to one side or the other and consciences which dictate how we vote.

We are heading towards insipid Labour and touchy-feely Conservatives. I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. Long live the middle ground, eh? This is why I like JC, in theory, if nothing else. (Sorry, probably haven't added anything to the debate.)

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 16:26:36

Sorry, but that is not being devious. That's just the usual prejudicial rant against him.

Can you show me any proof of all that?
I have shown you proof that he did more to support the remain group than all the other Labour remain MPs put together. But as it's a link, you will not read it.

Do you think that Labour is better off having nobody appointed to the Lords this time? Tories are laughing at that. Shami Chakrabarti is going to fight to get rid of the lords in the House of Lords. Is that wrong?

Show me where Corbyn is campaigning to get militants back in the party?
For someone who keeps accusing me of wanting to turn back to the 80s, you do your fair share.

thatbags Mon 22-Aug-16 16:21:25

This is a good article about Corbyn's political views by James Bloodworth, saying that Corbyn's "principles" are shit.

Here's an extract: "the otherwise sensible Owen Smith, is now waffling wildly about sitting 'round the table' with Islamic State (Isis). Though I cannot be sure, I suspect Smith knows that even entertaining such a strategy is vacuous nonsense. What, after all, would Britain get round the table to talk about exactly? What common ground exists with IS? If they stop threatening us, will we allow them to hold on to at least a few of their sex slaves? Are they to be permitted to carve off at least a small part of Syria and Iraq for their hellish and totalitarian 'caliphate'? Is the best response to murderers and sadists really to grant them even a modicum of legitimacy?"

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 15:56:26

Yes, claiming to dupport the party in the fight to remain in the EU, refusing to take part in one debate and going on Ho,I days during this period, not refusing to take part in tv debates fir his own leadership fight.

Appointing Shsmi to the lords weeks after her alleged independent report on racism in the party, it was not an indrpendsnt report she was a party member .

Going on and on and on about a more kinder politics yet watching a member of his party being bullied by a heckler, disregarding threats made to MP's

Campaigning to get militants beck into the party in full knowledge of the harm thrpry had done to the party.

He is no man of honour, he is self serving

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 15:24:26

Can you give examples of how Corbyn has been devious?

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 15:23:05

You know nothing of Progress, yet you seem to know everything about Momentum, including who you think is a member and who is not.

Perhaps you don't get it.
Was Corbyn elected as leader on a democratic mandate, or not?
Did the PLP immediately start machinations against him and therefore against the Labour party membership?

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 15:17:46

Jen, you just don't get it. I would choose a centre Labour Party in power than a far left party in the wilderness, been there for seventeen years. Carry on supporting the militant wing, I will not

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 15:14:45

I know nothing of progress Jen, I make my own decisions based on what I have learned as a Labour Party member for fifty years, listening to people, reading - not blogs- talking to political historians and politicians I trust. Listening to the views of local party members, talking to Libs, Tories , to many people

I do not trust Corbyn , regret voting for him, agree with Margaret Hodge - I thought he was a decent man, now I believe him to be a devious man

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 15:00:15

I supported all those, Annie. I just did not support the figurehead.
I did not vote for Blair along with all the Tories and Libdems who did.
When Blair was in charge, I voted for the Green party, as I am allowed to do.

Votibg for Corbyn is voting for socialism.
If Smith wins, Progress will soon put a right winger against him.

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 14:56:40

Is he? How do you know?

Is a vote for Smith a vote for Progress?
Is a vote for Smith a vote for the Campaign group?

No, and neither is a vote for Corbyn a vote for Momentum.

Are you a member of Progress?

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 14:24:43

A vote for Corbyn is a vote for Momentum , they cannot be separated, he is totally dependant on them

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 14:22:43

Saw that shot of Corbyn on the news, so? Let us not forget Khan was elected the labour candidate before Corbyn was elected leader , if Corbyn had been elected first we may have had Diane Abbot as the candidate , she stood too

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 14:18:41

So Jrn you didn't vote for Blair because you knew he wasn't a socialist, you played no part in the introduction of sure start, minimum wage, child tax credits, civil partnerships, paternity pay, 24 days paid holidays , free breast screening for women 50 to 70, Northern Ireland peace, free eye tests for over 60's , and so much more. Thank god for those who did support these

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 14:01:29

I wasn't lecturing you on democracy, Annie. My response was to Beam saying that a vote for Corbyn was a vote for Momentum.
We can't vote for Momentum. We can vote for the democratically elected leader of the labour party.

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 13:58:40

i1.wp.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/160822-Jeremy-Corbyn-phoning-for-Sadiq-Khan.png?resize=768%2C432

This is at Khan's office before he was elected mayor.

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 13:56:26

i1.wp.com/voxpoliticalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/160822-Sadiq-Khan-not-getting-involved.jpg?w=480

Sadiq Khan said this less than two months ago.

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 13:49:18

Unions have had most of their power taken away from them by successive tory governments. Nothing wrong with giving them back a bit more power, is there?

I have said about Khan that that is what could happen. It is. I have also said it's nothing to do with me, as I do not have a vote in London. What I say about Khan is no more than you say about Corbyn and his supporters. You are actively campaigning to have him deselected, even though you voted for him a year ago.
You are playing into the hands of tories.

I could say, Annie, that you speak Campaign speak, or Progress speak.
They are just as much labour focus groups as momentum.
I do not speak Momentum speak because they have decided to get rid of the non-violence clause. You must know I would never sign up to that.

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 12:30:57

Oops, sorry clicked too soon, sorry Jen , you may not be a signed up member of momentum but you speak momentum speak .

I am not against unions , I am concerned the damage Corbyn has done by claiming he will give unions MORE power , winter of discontent , militancy ?

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 12:26:27

Jen, please do not lecture me on democracy after your boast that Khan would not get votes if he stands again because he has declared his support for Smith not Corbyn, he has the same rights as you, this is democracy.

Anniebach Mon 22-Aug-16 12:22:24

Depends if voters want militancy back in the party, in fairness to the young who support Corbyn they never experienced the wilderness years or the fight to climb back, we lost four elections on the run because the country could not forget the winter of discontent and the militant movement . It was only by moving to the centre that labour won . Labour lost in 1979. 1983. 1987. 1992. labour increased it's majority in 1987 and 1992 , it was a steep and hard climb back from 1979 to 1997 . Corbyn knows this but wants to take the party back to those dark times for the party. The country will not vote for a far left government and to gain power Labour needs the vote of the centre ground.

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 12:01:35

MOMENTUM IS NOT A PARTY. You cannot vote for momentum.
A vote for Corbyn is a vote for the democratically elected leader of the Labour party.
DEMOCRACY. What we are all supposed to believe in, one member one vote.

Annie, when did you stop believing in unions?

Beammeupscottie Mon 22-Aug-16 11:58:32

Surely (correct me if I am wrong) a vote for Corbyn is a vote for Momentum?

There is an old adage "if you lie down with dirty dogs you will get fleas". Old Corby must have a terrible itch.

Beammeupscottie Mon 22-Aug-16 11:42:23

Knitting a Red Flag! To stick on Labour' grave, I assume?

durhamjen Mon 22-Aug-16 11:40:48

'You might indeed be close to the Labour Party but you have repeatedly told us not to vote Labour. If being close to a party gives a poster the sole right to speak on behalf of it or against it then GN might as well close down the politics forum.'

POGS, can you tell me where and when I have told people NOT to vote labour?
I have said I never voted Labour after Blair first came to power and while he was still in power, because I realised he wasn't a socialist.
I have said I support lots of things the NHA does and the Green party, but I have never told people repeatedly not to vote labour.

Obie, I do not wish to be called or thought of as a member of Momentum because I AM NOT A MEMBER OF MOMENTUM. I said that earlier, but you obviously did not take it in.

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