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WHO do the political parties represent

(110 Posts)
obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 13:58:06

Politics lite is not dumb. It partly means being more succinct, mainly because people do not have as much spare time as they once did. Many more two income families. They havent got time to spend too long looking in depth into politics, or anything else for that matter.
Twitter manages to keep going using 140 characters only. The world and the UK has changed if you ask me. That is why clubs cannot get volunteers etc, families just dont have the spare time.

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 13:51:37

dd
1. agree
2. agree
3. agree

Dont agree much with your HOWEVER points. One of my sons works in science. Apart from the things that are proper facts, some other stuff is really only opinions, political bias, interpretation and gut feelings and prejudice too. Science is known for not being exact. How can it be? Not everything has been discovered yet.

People can challenge "experts" by getting others to do it for them, they dont necessarily have to do it themselves.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 13:48:09

Gggrrrr! Must learn not to click too early.

There is quite a bit of discussion in the media about the 'post truth politics' of people such as Trump and Johnson.

This is an article from the Telegraph:

In a world of post-truth politics, Andrea Leadsom will make the perfect PM

Michael Deacon Parliamentary Sketchwriter

One day in summer 1999, the comedian Stewart Lee was riding through London in a taxi when the driver turned to him. “I think,” said the driver, “that all homosexuals should be killed.”

Somewhat taken aback by the abruptness of this announcement, Lee asked why. “Well,” said the driver. “Because homosexuality is immoral.”

Politely, Lee suggested that notions of morality are far from immutable. For example, he said, modern Western society derives many of its fundamental principles – in ethics, aesthetics, philosophy and more – from ancient Greece: a society in which love between two men was regarded as the
purest love of all.

The driver, however, was unimpressed.

“Yes, well,” he huffed. “You can prove anything with facts, can’t you?”

When Lee repeated this line in his stand-up shows, audiences laughed. Maybe they shouldn’t have. Like all great revolutionary thinkers, that taxi driver was simply ahead of his time. Because, if I had to pick a quote to sum up British politics in 2016, it would be that.

We apparently now inhabit a world that appears to be increasingly anti-fact. It’s a world in which campaigners for Brexit unblushingly asserted that Britain sends £350m a week to the EU, and pledged to spend the entirety of this imaginary sum on the NHS. It’s a world in which the defence minister, Penny Mordaunt, falsely told voters that Britain has no veto over Turkey joining the EU. And it’s a world in which 84 Tory MPs happily voted for a leadership candidate, Andrea Leadsom, who has made numerous deeply questionable claims about her career before politics.

The war on truth is being fought every bit as heroically on the Left as it is on the Right. The week before last, a far-Left website, The Canary, published a conspiracy theory about a “Blairite PR firm” masterminding the overthrow of Jeremy Corbyn – and saw their nonsense circulated by thousands of people. An employee of the PR firm, Portland Communications, has since said he’s received a written death threat headed “hello comrade” and warning him that “your blood is the price of your treachery”.

In a sense, The Canary captures the spirit of our times perfectly. Its purported aim is to counter the biases of the mainstream media, aka “the MSM” – yet it does so using an eye-popping bias of its own. Jeremy Corbyn, in The Canary’s view, can do no wrong, and his every appearance at the Commons dispatch box is reported as a thundering triumph, no matter how badly he fumbles and falters.

The Remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It doesn’t work. You’ve got to connect with people emotionally.

Clearly, though, there are readers who are only too willing to swallow it. The Canary is telling them exactly what they long to hear, and – since no other media outlet seems willing to provide this service – they accept its claim to be a brave and lonely voice of truth.

There really is an audience for this type of fantasy. Maybe I should launch a far-Left news site of my own, in which I report that Jeremy Corbyn is currently entering his 10th year as prime minister, poverty has been eliminated and nuclear weapons have been abolished. I could put The Canary out of business within days. Look at those Blairite traitors at The Canary, peddling the lie that Mr Corbyn is merely Leader of the Opposition! How dare they undermine him! No doubt they’ve been put up to it by their paymasters at Portland Communications!

The web and social media have made the spreading of conspiracy theories immeasurably more efficient. And you can see why they’re popular. Conspiracy theories are paradoxically not just angering, but comforting. They tell us that our problems are not our fault, and attribute them instead to a bogeyman enemy – “Zionists”, “elites”, “the Establishment”, “the MSM”. They appear to make sense of a dauntingly complex world, by reducing it to a children’s story about goodies and baddies.

And the more you’re convinced that the world is run by malevolent elites covertly working against your interests, the less likely you are to believe official sources of information. Not only newspapers, but academics, scientists, economists. “I think the people of this country,” sniffed Michael Gove, “have had enough of experts.” Perhaps he was right.

He wasn’t the only Brexit campaigner to identify and capitalise upon public distrust. Arron Banks, the multimillionaire behind Leave.EU, cheerfully attributed his campaign’s success to the mantra “facts don’t work”. Speaking after his referendum triumph, he said: “The Remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It doesn’t work. You’ve got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

In 2016, a politician who lies is said to be ‘running a positive campaign’, while opponents who point out the lies are ‘engaged in personal attacks’

He’s not wrong. Manipulating emotion does work; feelings can beat facts. This is why modern political campaigners love to use the words “positive” and “negative”, “optimism” and “pessimism”: they enable the easy dismissal of criticism.
Thus a politician who lies is “running a positive campaign”, while opponents who point out the lies are “engaged in personal attacks”. Inconvenient facts can be denounced as “smears”, and warnings as “scaremongering”. In the Scottish referendum of 2014, anyone who questioned the Yes campaign’s utopian vision of independence was accused of “talking Scotland down”. This year, anyone who questioned the utopian vision of Brexit was “talking Britain down”.

It’s a simple but effective message. Facts are negative. Facts are pessimistic. Facts are unpatriotic.

In light of all this, I think Andrea Leadsom makes an ideal candidate for prime minister. She embodies the mood of anti-factual “positivity”. On Thursday, during what was billed as “a major speech on the economy”, she mentioned little in the way of policy, but to great cheers spoke sunnily of “hope”, “optimism” and “banishing the pessimists”. She portrayed the fall in the pound as “great news for exports”. And, to show that Brexit hasn’t harmed our economy, she noted that the FTSE 100 was up.

Critics have argued that it was up largely because our currency had plummeted to a 30-year low against the dollar. Yes, well. You can prove anything with facts, can’t you?

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 13:34:41

People who ignore experts seem to have very closed minds.

I think there are a couple of problems with 'experts':

1 Anybody can say they're an expert. You only have to look around the internet to see how any cowboy (or girl) can claim to be an expert, especially on nutrition and health. Once they're established as an expert, they can sell books and have TV programmes. People are right to question them.

2 The media describes too many people as 'experts'. During my career, I've worked with quite a few people who went on to very senior roles and are now hailed as 'experts'. Very often they are nothing of the sort, apart from being expert bullshi**ers.

3 There are many areas where even experts disagree. I'm sure most people would agree that Prof Mary Beard knows more than almost anybody on the planet about classical civilisation, but even she disagrees with some other experts, because there is no definite proof after two thousand years.

HOWEVER, even if experts aren't always right, they know a heck of a lot more about various issues than the vast majority of people do and their views will be based on facts, not gut feelings and prejudice. If people want to challenge experts, they need to know at least as many facts and use those to challenge interpretation. They don't. They resort to being insulting and/or dismissive, because their own worldview is challenged.

Badenkate Fri 12-Aug-16 13:04:18

However much the British public may have thought they'd had enough of experts, it is becoming more and more obvious that, on the whole, they got things right.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 12:46:23

PS, obieone. If you think the Remain side got it wrong by not having dumbed down politics, does that mean that you think the Leave side is dumb? They've been doing their best to refute that claim.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 12:44:27

@obieone

How can you justify 'dumbed down politics'? Do you think the population is dumb and doesn't deserve anything better? shock

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 12:42:52

Thanks for starting this thread. Hopefully, there will be some interesting discussion.

I'm not so sure that if you interviewed the majority of confirmed Conservative supporters that they would see themselves as capitalists. I suspect what they want is a comfortable life without upheaval. They would see that they've earned what they have and don't want to give away to people who don't deserve it. The original Tory Party wanted to maintain the 'status quo' and I think there's still an element of that.

It's the opposition who brand Conservatives as capitalists, because they question the basis of wealth in the world.

The role of the media can't be ignored. The British have been fed ideas for decades (maybe centuries). It's quite interesting to read foreign media and see how interpretations differ.

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 12:41:57

I think that the population of the UK is now so large, that there is no longer a one size fits all for anything.

We also have to take into account that most or the majority of the electorate are not that interested in spending a lot of their precious time looking into politics, so they need and can only cope with politics lite.
Which is where I think the remain camp in particular got it wrong.

Nowadays, "experts" are often more scrutinized and found lacking, so "experts" are not held in such high regard on anything, as they once were.

In short, politics is now dumbed down which is not a bad thing in my opinion.

Gracesgran Fri 12-Aug-16 11:07:41

I have begun to think this is 'the question'. The main parties will tell us WHAT they stand for but not who.

When you listen to UKIP supporters they will often describe NG as someone who 'gets' them and their problems. Trump supporters seem to feel the same thing and Corbyn's supporters seem to have a similar view that he is saying things that relate to them.

Do people really want all the detail of policies or has the Gove quote that "Britain has had enough of experts" summed up the more tribal views that actually exist.

You might ask why then do the Conservatives scrape into power. Easy really. If you keep telling people their tribe will only survive if our tribe (capitalists) does you can convince them, just as the Barons convinced the peasants that protection came from making the Barons rich.

Just a thought smile