Working mothers

Let's be honest most working mothers don't have that sort of job. They're the cleaners, shop workers, factory workers and clerical staff of this country. So we're being asked to fund the high flyers

Do you consider teachers and nurses, for example, to be 'high flyers' because I don't. Without these women returning to work I'm afraid our education system and NHS would certainly collapse.

And it is important that they return to work, not just to teach our grandchildren and keep the NHS running, but so that they can progress up their career ladder too and don't just end up as the workhorses of the systems.

apologies if these points have already been made

What has multiplied the cost of housing was the willingness of mortgage providers to supply a loan of more than could comfortably be repaid, based on the premise that the value of a house would continue to rise forever in the buoyant prevailing financial atmosphere, where massive debt was no longer a dirty word.

The laws of supply and demand meant that because the cost of a bigger and/or better home was available, people made higher bids than they might have done, so price houses DID in fact rise. Then when they dropped again, they were, not surprisingly, unwilling to sell at a loss, so they hung back if they could, and prices stayed high.

The rising population and the standstill in local authority building of houses to rent added to the pressure on the existing housing stock (both to buy and to rent)

There are some women (and men) who simply want it all. Not satisfied with one good job between them, 2 healthy happy children, a nice little holiday, car, a medium sized house. They want all of that on steroids. 2 new cars, a huge expensive house, exotic holidays etc. then they complain about childcare.

This is a tricky one. I wanted to be with my children until they went to full time school and worked in the evenings and then did part time work so I could meet them from school. Although I was always late collecting them. When they were in their teens I went full time and ended up with a good well paid career. So you can do both. My children with children use nurseries and child minders. They don't want to be sahms.

I don't understand why when Mum's are left with children, the dads don't seem to think the children are their responsibility unless they choose to be!

I really seem to have set the cat amongst the pigeons with this thread. I didn't intend to but it's amazing how some threads seem to hit home and get people talking.

I was just having a rant about people who have good incomes expecting the government/employers to subsidise and/or adapt to their wants and needs when one of them (usually but not necessarily the mother) could stay at home and look after the children.

If money suddenly became available I'd much rather it was spent on subsidising and supporting the mothers who have no choice (or fathers if that's the case).

Vampire queen, you started this thread with the title Working mothers. That, to me, seems pretty slanted towards one sex.

I don't know any young couples who haven't taken into account childcare costs and so on. My own sons were each married seven years before having families. They don't expect anyone to give them anything, they make their own way in life. As it happens, one son's wife is the main breadwinner. He has deliberately stepped back in his own profession so she can develop her career.

I expect both my own daughters will continue to work if/when they have children. One is a high flyer in her work and the other is training as a doctor. What a waste of their skills for them to forgo their careers and what a financial waste to the country of training female doctors if they then leave the profession.

I was a working Mum as we couldn't afford for me to stay home. I had three months off work after my first and six months after the second. I felt very guilty at leaving my kids as it was not the norm then. After the first, I came home and cried every evening. I would hate for anyone to have to go through that. So don't let us condemn anyone who wants/has to go back to work. It is not an easy option. Nor is being a Stay at home Mum. That is a difficult job too. At least we, as women, have more options now. Unfortunately, the cost of childcare is now very high. My kids went to a childminder, who was excellent, and they have both grown up to be kind, considerate members of society. Let's us celebrate the options now available to women. We have come a long way!!

I find myself agreeing with Lilyflower on page 1. Todays parents have to afford a home and a life at todays prices. I was anti nursery until I saw how my grandsons coped with it and benefited from it, but it HAS to be a good nursery chosen with care.
Both my daughters and a son in law went down to working 4 days a week as a childcare strategy. They are navigating the parenting and career path and pulling together in their separate teams and managing.It's hard though and we grandparents help out when needed. We're on the team too.
I spare a thought for those parents who have to manage without the back-up. I was one of them for a long while, and I'm so glad that my girls will be able to support themselves and their children if disaster strikes because they have a good well paid career.

I haven't been able to find the article you mention in the OP. As I understand, all childcare help/provision provided by employers is voluntary, there being several options for those that do. Look at it from an HR perspective.
Employers who offer good working terms and conditions will attract diverse, qualified employees. I worked for a big charity that was 'family friendly', largely due to the CEO's belief in equal opportunities. It was a great having pregnant mums on the staff, celebrating births, welcoming new parents back from maternity/paternity leave, sometimes gradually, sometimes full-time. It reflected the wider society our charity worked to support. Managing the scheme was simply built into our financial planning.
With a new CEO that all changed and it subtly changed recruitment too. We could no longer claim in adverts we had childcare benefits, we fell out of the 'top employers' charts. Applicants were mainly young single graduates looking for a first job, they tended not to stay long, quickly moving on to employers with more attractive working conditions.
I'm not saying every business can afford generous childcare policies, but I see absolutely to reason to discourage those that can and do.

gillybob do you have any examples of the image you have created? Because most of the young families I know are just able to pay their housing costs, run one car and have a very basic holiday (often visiting relatives). If they have 2 cars it is because they both need to use a car for work. Their childcare costs are astronomic and add to their financial burden. There may be families in the situation you describe but they are not the norm.
vampirequeen do you object to paying for a child's education when they are 4+? If not why would you object to 2 or 3?

Radicalnan, my sentiments entirely. I've argued for years about why looking after other people's children is a job, but SAHMs are often regarded as being lazy and unwilling to 'work'. Another point, even if childcare eats up your salary in the early years, it enables you to keep your career going.

grannypiper, I agree with everything you have said.

It is true that two salaries might be needed to afford a mortgage, but there is always the option of renting, at least until the children are at school.

A subject dear to my heart! I do laugh when people accuse me of having a 50's mindset when I voice my opinion that being a mother at home is the most fulfilling job in the world! I laugh because I am a 50's child, raised by a mother who was about 70 years ahead of her time. She wanted to work, and since my dad wanted her t stay home, she divorced him and raised me on her own -- with the help of Granny and Aunties of course!

I can only say that growing up with a working mother made me determined that when I had children I would enjoy them, love them, never get bored by them, and stay with them as much as possible when they are small, and that's the way it was.
I wonder how much of the "babies are so boring" message is instilled in us and how much is natural? If we hear that message as young girls again and again of COURSE it will come to pass. We practically brainwash them into finding motherhood unfulfilling and menial.

I hated seeing so little of my mother. I hated that she never cooked for me, that she wasn't there at lunchtime, that her job was more important that I was. How I envied my friends whose homes had a strong motherly heart, someone who would be there, strong and nourishing, for them. I almost bled for such a home!

Instead my mother would always talk derogatorily of mothers who stayed home "among the pots and pans", and insinuated that she was better than they. My mother was one of the first feminists in my country and her name is a household one:: she was a very active person in political life and did a tremendous amount for the women of my country. But somehow she lacked something, and I was the only one who knew. I did love her dearly, but could never get as close to her as I would have wished, and I think this is because she could not bond with a baby. It does leave footprints on the soul. Before she died, however, we talked about it and came to a good conclusion.

I am really glad I had my children in Germany, where mothers (or fathers) who stay home get a very good family tax bracket, so that they don't lose out financially. It must be awful to HAVE to work (in fact, for my first child I did work after he was six months, but only part time.)

But we must be careful not to create a whole new dogma to replace the old one, in which women think they MUST work in order to not be bored. Babies are NOT boring, They are experiencing the most incredible adventure: every second for them is new and exciting and full of promise, and if we could only tune into them we would not be bored even an instant. Mothering CAN be learned -- but not when we tell mothers they are stupid for finding their little ones fascinating. Yes, there are times when it is tedious and wearying but which job is always perfect?

Well, mine are now grown up and I am a grandmother. I actually took more than 20 years off work finally, and went back when I was in my fifties. It was just fine -- yes, I earned less than if I had worked all through those years, but the years with by little ones can never be replaced, and really, I am seeing right now how terribly boring it is at work -- I'm a social worker, which should be interesting, but isn't. I can't wait to retire next year.

Sorry this post is so long, especially for someone who hardly ever posts here (though I did write a blog post over a year ago!)

grannypiper I disagree strongly with your assertion of the type of girls (usually) pushed into childcare as their only option. My DD studied Childcare through choice, she had already done lots of babysitting, voluntary work with deaf children, no other carrer would do for her.

She was offered 3 College places due to her experience & school reports before she had her GCSE results.

She did placements during College both in Nurseries & as a Nanny. She got a job in a Nursery when she quaified, she hated it, the "bitching" amongst the staff was dreadful. She then went to work as a Nanny which she loved only leaving when she relocated.

My DD has my DGS & has been a SAHM as her OH is disabled & it is almost impossible to work as her OH needs round the clock care. My DGS is a delightful child but his Parents spend lots of time with him & he is doing well at school, he's 6.

I returned to College when my DD was 5 (her F left me so became a Single Parent) & needed before & after school care. When I returned to work I used a Child-Minder & my DM & Step-Father shared Holiday Childcare even though they lived 250 Miles away.I needed to work as my DH was on a fairly low Income. I believe it is for each Parents/Parents to make their decision based on their own circumstances. I worked Part-Time when my DD was 18 Months Old & returned to Full-Time work when she was 9. I received no Government help with my costs

Times have certainly changed since I had my children. I didn't work after I was married in 1946 and neither did any of my friends and neighbours. I saved money by making my own and children's clothes, growing all our vegetables etc. I was an active member of the W.I. And learned and passed on crafts and cooking skills, so had outside interests. My husband worked irregular hours so I was always home for him. He did suffer from what is now known as PTSD for which there was no help in those days. We were a happy family. My granddaughter is the main breadwinner for her family but the three children spend so much time with my son so that I feel they are being brought up by him and his wife rather than their parents.

I think the original post was slanted toward one sex too. I agree with Suedonim it would be criminal to lose well trained people to domesticity. Nothing wrong at all with either scenario, stay at home or working, just needs careful management to ensure neither suffers. I think there should be more effort made to allow parents to work part time whilst their children are young. That way their pension and career options are more protected. I enjoyed working and would not have been happy to stay at home with the children full time, part time work was a solution but my pension suffered greatly due to this. It is so much more difficult for young people now I know.

Aruna51,Thank you for sharing that with us.I have heard similar stories very often,of course there will always be someone with a different view,but the fact so many people are in therapy today must say something.

I can't see why sahms wouldn't benefit from some subsidised childcare as well. Presumably they are allowed to be away from their children sometimes

Ive done both I stayed at home briefly with my first child, who then had a child minder. For our second child my husband gave up work and was a stay at home Dad until they were both at school. My own mother worked and I was a "latch key kid", I vowed after that experience that our children wouldn't suffer for our careers - if we hadn't been able to accommodate adequate childcare/ family life we wouldn't have had children... Indeed we were married 15 years before we embarked on a family for those very reasons. I too agree it's a choice - you can have both these days, but something has to give and it's not easy. I do not mind my DGC's - I still work myself as does my husband - although I'm winding down to retirement now and could take them if necessary but my DC have made proper and adequate arrangements I.e. One is a SAHM, the other works as does his wife but they have a childminder.

Legs55, there are some outstanding providers, some really good and some that are there because education was not their forte. I wish i could say that colleges didnt push through students who really dont suit childcare but they do.We had one young student on work experience who had special needs herself and couldnt be left with the children, we had a Polish W/E who's English was basic both of these lovely girls "passed " their exams.Daycare is a parents choice and every setting has good and not so good points. I understand in most cases(not always) parents have to go back to work.
There was a very interesting article in the DM last week about women who earn less than their daycare bills !

Careers and children do not go together. It should be one or the other. A child is a full time job if done properly.

But Christineforce why do you write of losing "well trained people to domesticity", as if domesticity is something, well, criminal? This is the mindset I am so against -- that we reduce childcare to something menial, when in fact learning to care fora small child is a tremendous skill -- and I don't mean nappy changing and feeding. I mean the interpersonal connection.
At the hospital where I work several female doctors have been pregnant in the last few years, and then they disappear to care for their child at home. The head doctor in the team where I work -- geriatric -- has grown up children. She will have stayed home with them when they were small because almost all mothers do here (occasionally fathers too). The doctors who are now at home with their babies will return one day -- and I bet they are better people, more skilled, more intuitive, more empathetic due to their years at home. Their education is not lost, just paused for a while.
The problem we have to conquor is the stigma -- that's all.
Already the way we couch the arguments -- objecting that the OP speaks of mothers and leaves out fathers, and calling this sexist, is revealing -- as if the child-care is the dirty work and we have to force fathers to do it because they have the better deal.
It's not true. Motherhood is something very special indeed; babies feel that bond, and most fathers will struggle to recreate it. Not that they can't -- but they have not had a baby growing inside them for 9 months, a human being that knows his thoughts, feeling, voice, everything. I find it so sad that saying things like this puts me at risk of being called sexist. I prefer to think I am 70 years ahead of my time, just like my mother was!
Sorry again for the long post, as a newcomer (not quite, though!) to the forum.

Both my DDs are working Mother's and l care for the four DGC they have between them four days a week. They have good jobs,a PA and a Senior School teacher and their husbands work too but still couldn't afford Childcare with their salaries. The government needs to help families by offering more free childcare. Also to help the Childcare Providers. If it wasn't for Grandparents helping out there would be lots more benefit claimers.

Already the way we couch the arguments -- objecting that the OP speaks of mothers and leaves out fathers, and calling this sexist, is revealing -- as if the child-care is the dirty work and we have to force fathers to do it because they have the better deal.

No one has spoken about forcing fathers to do child care, or referred to it as if it were dirty work. Most fathers now play a big part in caring for children and some are the main carer. To miss them out and not acknowledge this is to do them a great disservice. For years men had little to do with their children, today they can enjoy them fully. Any discussion on child care must recognise the value of fathers.

When we were pre-school, my mother worked as a freelance hairdresser making her appointments to fit around Dad's shift rota. Later she worked full time in various clerical jobs and we were 'latch-key children I week in four. Mum & Dad shared the cooking, laundry, cleaning and we had our designated chores from an early age. I think we had the 'best of all worlds'' in our childhood spending equal time with both parents.

I expected to carry on working when married and after I had my DDs but back in 1969, you were expected to leave your job (a senior bank clerkess) as soon as you were pregnant and when I applied to rejoin the staff with the DDs at school I was refused as I would be 'unreliable' and they could not guarantee a 4.00pm finish each day. Consequently, I was forced into a variety of low paid part time jobs which fitted in with school hours. Thankfully by the time the DDs were older and needing financial support to attend Uni, I had worked my way up to a full-time reasonable salary.

My 'career women' DDs left it late to have their children but both had to change careers because they could not reconcile the demand of their employers with their parenting responsibilities. They managed at first with a combination of grandparents/nursery/child minders and both Dads received childcare vouchers from their employers, but when the DGC started school and had to be accompanied to school at 9am and collected at 3pm this became impossible e.g we could not do all the school drop-offs/pick ups because the children were in different schools 5 miles apart. Both DDs say that the main problem they have faced is not child care for wee ones but the inflexibility of school hours/holidays and in-service days, even after-school clubs finish at 4pm. They both now work mainly from home and we fill in when they are working elsewhere, and the Dads take charge evenings and weekends.

Every family has to find their own way through the ever changing difficulties thrown up by work v family life. My DDs and my DGC all seem to have survived and indeed benefited from the hotchpoch of their 'rearing'. I was most encouraged to learn of research which showed that a combination of parents/grandparents/nursery or childminder produces the happiest, most adaptable children, with the biggest vocabulary and range of knowledge and most social skills.